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  1. #51
    Bob Carnie's Avatar
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    I do it this way as well, for all Pyro development.
    Quote Originally Posted by Mainecoonmaniac View Post
    I put my film back into the developer to stain it when souping in PMK pyro is because I'm too cheap to use a separate alkaline solution to to the staining.

  2. #52
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mainecoonmaniac View Post
    I put my film back into the developer to stain it when souping in PMK pyro is because I'm too cheap to use a separate alkaline solution to to the staining.
    The scuttlebutt is that this step affords little gain if any (maybe hardening?).
    It supposedly adds to GENERAL stain not imaged silver stain.

    I've seen the recommendation to do an afterbath with the Formulary's PMK instructions.

    IDK but thought I would point it out.

  3. #53
    ROL
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    Quote Originally Posted by eclarke View Post
    My next door neighbor, Yong-ran Zhu and I have the same Jobos, the exact water supply, darkrooms which are at the same depth in the same dirt, indentical block walls, many identical lenses, same films and developers, we have stood on the same spot and photographed the same subject, we use the same paper and paper developer and STILL have different times, results and looks to our prints. As Thomas pointed out, it's your entire system including exposure philosophy which will determine the outcome..Evan Clarke
    Precisely. Which is why I felt it appropriate and necessary to point out the primacy of consistency in one's own workflow in a previous thread.

  4. #54
    2F/2F's Avatar
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    Redunking the film after developing in pyro seems not to increase the density-proportional masking, but just to add a general mask (AKA fog). I don't do it any more.
    2F/2F

    "Truth and love are my law and worship. Form and conscience are my manifestation and guide. Nature and peace are my shelter and companions. Order is my attitude. Beauty and perfection are my attack."

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  5. #55

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    Quote Originally Posted by Bob Carnie View Post
    but IMHO the most significant point about Pyro is it is a tannin developer. the hardening effect stops migration of the exposed silver which keeps our highlight detail very detailed.
    Bob, could you elaborate on what this means when using non-staining devs?

    I mean, say w/ d-76 or HC-110, are you saying while developing that the silver and image structure migrates in the highlights...? Do you think this have any correlation to the old practice of keeping the wet time of the film to a minimum (something that's been argued as false here, but which I was always taught..."don't let the grain swim around!")?

    I ask, b/c there's a fellow I know and respect who runs very very very good film. He and I use the same dev, and when on rare occasion I've had him run my film, the one major difference I've noticed is how much sharper, acute in grain, and more tonal separation, he achieves in the highlights and say zone 7 and up.

    I've often wondered what the difference is in how we handle the film...and I thought he may just develop to a higher CI more aggressively, but your above statement about silver migrating in the highlights made me wonder if there could be other things at play.

    Apologies for derailing the thread!

  6. #56
    Thomas Bertilsson's Avatar
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    I'm obviously not Bob Carnie (which is good for him), but I'd like to ask if your acquaintance maybe runs a replenished version of the same developer you use? That would give sharper negatives that are more acute, and with slightly finer grain.

    Just an aside to your thought process.

    - Thomas

    Quote Originally Posted by GraemeMitchell View Post
    Bob, could you elaborate on what this means when using non-staining devs?

    I mean, say w/ d-76 or HC-110, are you saying while developing that the silver and image structure migrates in the highlights...? Do you think this have any correlation to the old practice of keeping the wet time of the film to a minimum (something that's been argued as false here, but which I was always taught..."don't let the grain swim around!")?

    I ask, b/c there's a fellow I know and respect who runs very very very good film. He and I use the same dev, and when on rare occasion I've had him run my film, the one major difference I've noticed is how much sharper, acute in grain, and more tonal separation, he achieves in the highlights and say zone 7 and up.

    I've often wondered what the difference is in how we handle the film...and I thought he may just develop to a higher CI more aggressively, but your above statement about silver migrating in the highlights made me wonder if there could be other things at play.

    Apologies for derailing the thread!
    "Often moments come looking for us". - Robert Frank

    "Make good art!" - Neil Gaiman

    "...the heart and mind are the true lens of the camera". - Yousuf Karsh

  7. #57
    Thomas Bertilsson's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Thomas Bertilsson View Post
    I'm obviously not Bob Carnie (which is good for him), but I'd like to ask if your acquaintance maybe runs a replenished version of the same developer you use? That would give sharper negatives that are more acute, and with slightly finer grain.

    Just an aside to your thought process.

    - Thomas
    Never mind, I just remembered out conversations regarding replenished developers... Even feeble brains will try to make things better. LOL Now, where's my coffee again?
    "Often moments come looking for us". - Robert Frank

    "Make good art!" - Neil Gaiman

    "...the heart and mind are the true lens of the camera". - Yousuf Karsh

  8. #58

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    Thomas, we both run replenished. But good call b/c THAT was one of the big steps I made in getting my negs closer to what I've seen him do. But still, there's something more. I know he uses a slightly buffer dilution though, which would cut about %40 of the time in developer, and that's why my brain clicked by what Mr Carnie had written about silver migration in the highlights. In fairness, the person I'm referring to is literally one of the most accomplished B&W techs in the world, so the bar is set high.

    Granted, it's not day and night, looking at the film, more subtelties. When I run up to a higher CI, my TX shoulders off. When I've seen his TX, even denser, the shoulder looks like TMY (that is: not one).

    Anyway...

  9. #59
    Bob Carnie's Avatar
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    The book of Pyro by Gordon Hutchings has been my film Pyro development bible since it was released and I have been using Jobo and pyro for 15 plus years and can easily state that we have processed thousands of runs of pyro .

    But here is my layman take on what happens.. Ralph/ Ian, take over please if I am not explaining the chemical and physical details correctly.
    Pyro is a tannin developer, and my understanding is as the silver is developing out the bloom effect is lessoned and the silver migrates less due to a hardening of the gelatin around the grain, which kind of stops migration the effect gives much more defined highlight detail.
    ***we must remember and I think this gets lost on a lot of people is that within highlight regions we are not only talking about white, but grey and black objects that are within this region.***
    As development goes on these silver tones get hardened and set very nicely within the main highlight region as well. This adds tremendous local contrast which can be seen as greator detail in the highlight region. This has been pointed out many times by Les Mclean.

    for example go into a room lit only by a light bulb and photograph the room.
    with a normal developer the bulb will not be visible and their will be all kinds of flare around the bulb.
    with a pyro developer the bulb will be visible and very little flare around the bulb.
    There are those who argue that graded papers are the best and I do remember when all the papers were graded, a scene of extreme tonal range would be impossible not to sacrifice at one end , and make a much lower contrast print.
    If you tried to keep super rich blacks with good separation and burn in the highlights you would get mushy , soft highlights.
    This is why I split print on VC paper and use a Pyro Developer for photographers working with extreme or long tonal ranges in the original scene.

    Graeme
    If your friend is using the same developer as you and it is not Pyro as you state then I am not sure why the difference. Agitation can have a tremendous effect in the highlight region which would cause softening in the highlights, otherwise I do not have an answer.

    My clients these days have been with me for years, together we have discussed the options available for their particular needs and try to match the ISo and developer for certain applications.

    Flat scenes we never use Pyro, but rather D76 or HC110 .

    Medium scenes we make the decision based on shutter speed required.

    Extreme scenes we usually go to expose for shadow , open one stop , and drop process for the highlights.
    I always use a two bath Pyro Developer- 1000 ml + 1000 ml using the exhausted first developer as the stain.
    We have not strayed from these principles . I do have a hankering to try the Pyrocat Semi Stand, as I have seen some awesome negatives made this way but with client work I cannot bring myself to experiment with their film.
    Sandy King and I believe Steve Sherman use this method of film development for their work and the negs are good.

    Quote Originally Posted by GraemeMitchell View Post
    Bob, could you elaborate on what this means when using non-staining devs?

    I mean, say w/ d-76 or HC-110, are you saying while developing that the silver and image structure migrates in the highlights...? Do you think this have any correlation to the old practice of keeping the wet time of the film to a minimum (something that's been argued as false here, but which I was always taught..."don't let the grain swim around!")?

    I ask, b/c there's a fellow I know and respect who runs very very very good film. He and I use the same dev, and when on rare occasion I've had him run my film, the one major difference I've noticed is how much sharper, acute in grain, and more tonal separation, he achieves in the highlights and say zone 7 and up.

    I've often wondered what the difference is in how we handle the film...and I thought he may just develop to a higher CI more aggressively, but your above statement about silver migrating in the highlights made me wonder if there could be other things at play.

    Apologies for derailing the thread!

  10. #60
    Bob Carnie's Avatar
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    You are over 6ft, much younger , good looking and obviously pretty smart guy,.

    I am short, old , ugly and as Dinesh will agree really dumb.

    I want to be you.

    Quote Originally Posted by Thomas Bertilsson View Post
    I'm obviously not Bob Carnie (which is good for him), but I'd like to ask if your acquaintance maybe runs a replenished version of the same developer you use? That would give sharper negatives that are more acute, and with slightly finer grain.

    Just an aside to your thought process.

    - Thomas



 

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