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  1. #81
    Bob Carnie's Avatar
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    Yes I jump a grade as well.
    For split printing Non Stain normal scene I will start at about grade 1
    For split printing Pyro somewhat normal scene I will start at about grade 2.
    Ralph L had some points about 00 and Ilford Warmtone not recording well.
    With Pyro negs I can confirm that 0 or 00 is not great with Ilford WT .
    I found this out on a sheet of film of one of the most beautiful portraits I have ever worked on.
    Tibetan Warriour- photographed in a black tent with very mininmal exposure on the film. At the time I was doing 0 and 5 splits and my client pointed out to me that my blacks though detailed were not black enough. We moved up a grade and man did the print pop.
    from that day on I only use 0 or 00 with Ilford Warmtone as an accent of extra tool to place tone in difficult highlights and I do not recommend splitting with 0.
    This problem is very hard to see but look in your blacks, if they look a bit muddy and you are using Ilford Warmtone and splitting starting with 0 filter then move up a grade and watch some magic happen.
    I disagree with most split printers on this , I only use Ilford Warmtone so maybe its not an issue with other VC papers.

    Quote Originally Posted by Thomas Bertilsson View Post
    I'm beginning to wonder if there is a large difference between Pyrocat derivatives and pyrogallol based developers, grain wise. I have 16x12" silver gelatin prints on VC paper and FP4+ film, 35mm, where I have trouble seeing the grain a couple of feet from the print surface.
    But the negatives seemed to print well on Grade 2 graded paper, but I had to jump to Grade 3 for VC paper for the most part using the same negative.

    It is an interesting thread this, and I'm learning quite a bit about pyro developers. I might get some just for the heck of it to try in very large brightness range photos.

  2. #82

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    Thomas your jump from graded #2 to VC #3 seems logical to me, at least directionally.

    I also agree there might be significant differences in graininess depending on the developing agent(s). Not only that but some formulas stain more than others, and more stain means less silver, and more grain masking. Plus there are some formulas like WD2D+ that stain yellow-orange. Pyrocat is reputed to be relatively fine grained although I have not tried it myself.

    It's funny this thread came up now because as it happens I had just ordered a series of different formulary developers for some particular experiments and on a whim decided to throw in a few tanning developers just for fun since I have not used one in quite some time. I might try them with 35mm. Never used a staining developer on anything smaller than 4x5 before. I doubt I'll end up switching, but always fun to rediscover things. For good measure I included The Book of Pyro in my order. Finally gave in on that one.

  3. #83
    Bob Carnie's Avatar
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    He had the ability to hire some real fancy pancy printers in the day, I swear its pyro without the stain.
    No I do not think he processed them himself, though I am sure he looked at every negative..
    Lots of people used a mature replenished line, others flew with film to Picto to have it developed by inspection.
    He was with the same group as Irving Penn and that dude really pushed the envelope when it came to film and printing, so I think for that period he could very well have been using pyro.

    Penn and Avedon were great, and would leave no stone unturned.

    Quote Originally Posted by Guillaume Zuili View Post
    Hi Bob,
    Given the time period most likely a mature replenished dev.
    Not sure if he processed them himself. Did he ?
    G

  4. #84

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    Quote Originally Posted by Sirius Glass View Post
    So stain is not a uniformly dense fog across the film. If it were then people would not have been using pyro for decades. This is inline with my analysis of the anecdotal evidence that I have come across.

    Steve
    There are two kinds of stain, general stain is like fog, imagewise stain is proportional to silver density. Imagewise stain is the desirable one.

  5. #85
    Guillaume Zuili's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bob Carnie View Post
    He had the ability to hire some real fancy pancy printers in the day, I swear its pyro without the stain.
    No I do not think he processed them himself, though I am sure he looked at every negative..
    Lots of people used a mature replenished line, others flew with film to Picto to have it developed by inspection.
    He was with the same group as Irving Penn and that dude really pushed the envelope when it came to film and printing, so I think for that period he could very well have been using pyro.

    Penn and Avedon were great, and would leave no stone unturned.

    Agree. :-)
    There are/were Replenished non stain Pyro dev.
    Best of both world.
    :-)

  6. #86
    Guillaume Zuili's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Michael R 1974 View Post
    There are two kinds of stain, general stain is like fog, imagewise stain is proportional to silver density. Imagewise stain is the desirable one.
    For sure. But even a very thin pyro negative (almost transparent) has much more meat and contrast than expected. Way more. So there is really something magical with that stain, whichever it is.

  7. #87

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    The density, and density range (ie contrast) of the stained negative is higher than it looks upon visual inspection since your eye is only evaluating the silver density. This says nothing about what filter to use. It depends how you develop the negative. It's hard to compare it to a non-stained negative and bridge it with a filter change because, again, the stain is a variable quasi-compensating filter.

    Contrast with a Pyro negative will typically be higher on graded paper than VC paper

  8. #88
    Guillaume Zuili's Avatar
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    This is why I use mostly graded papers, to get contrast. And when it's VC it's in lith so filter doesn't mean much for me.

    Need to sleep before taking a plane.
    :-)

  9. #89

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    Quote Originally Posted by Sirius Glass View Post
    I keep hearing conflicting answers on staining. One camp with Per, staining is proportional to exposure, use it.
    The other camp with Sandy King [correct me if I am wrong], staining is uniform like a fog, do not use it.
    The term "staining" being used so loosely is causing the confusion. Staining happens during development, and it is proportional to density. Staining can also happen in a post-fixer bath, in which case it is not proportional to density IME. So I would say that based on my own negatives, Per is right, if you clarify that he was talking about the staining that happens during development, and Sandy is right, if you clarify that he is talking about the post-fixer staining bath. I only use the post-fixer staining bath if I want to add fog (which can actually be quite useful sometimes). Otherwise, I do not.
    2F/2F

    "Truth and love are my law and worship. Form and conscience are my manifestation and guide. Nature and peace are my shelter and companions. Order is my attitude. Beauty and perfection are my attack."

    - Rob Tyner (1944 - 1991)

  10. #90
    Ian Grant's Avatar
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    You can all worry to much about the type of stain, effect of stain etc. But those of us using these developers see advantages for our work with practical experience sometimes there's too many theoretical explanations usually by inexperienced usewrs.

    Ian

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