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  1. #51

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    Just thought I'd bump this and say thanks to everyone who contributed to the thread. I'm shooting b/w again after a couple years back in school (doing math, not photography) and when both of my photo shops told me that Agfa no longer sells Rodinal, I about had a coronary. I still have 2 1/2 bottles left from when Agfa was around, but better to be safe than sorry.

  2. #52
    Leigh B's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ian Grant View Post
    A difference is the Calbe RO9 contains more p-Aminophenol and no excess Hydroxide while the later Agfa formula uses less p-Aminophenol at a higher pH and there is excess Hydroxide to give that pH increase which makes it more efficient.
    Since the Rodinal formulas have never been published, where did you get this information?

    - Leigh
    “Wise men talk because they have something to say; fools, because they have to say something.” - Plato

  3. #53
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    Quote Originally Posted by Leigh B View Post
    Since the Rodinal formulas have never been published, where did you get this information?

    - Leigh
    The two manufacturers have published quite accurate MSDS data over the years, these give things like the pH, amount of p--Aminophenol and sulphite.

    The Rodinal formula was published in a FIAT report after WWII and aside from one additive the figures all match up perfectly. The additive is an anti-oxidant/long chain wetting gaent which Agfa Patented before WWII. There's other data as well from reliable sources such as LP Clerc as well as Dr Andresen's own book where he published p-Aminophenol hydrochloride based developer formulae. Rodinal uses the free base which needed preparing first.

    It shouldn't be forgotten that both Ilford (Certinal), Kodak (Kodinol) as well as other companies made their own Rodinal type developers, in Ilford's case Certinal was introduced in 1909. Kodak also sold "Kodelon" a developing agent at one point this was p-Aminophenol oxalate, but they also sold the hydrochloride as Kodelon, I've seen Kodelon bottles marked with both forms.

    Ian

  4. #54
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ian Grant View Post
    The two manufacturers have published quite accurate MSDS data over the years, these give things like the pH, amount of p--Aminophenol and sulphite.
    OK. The Agfa MSDS that I have (225P.02 08/02/2002) has only general concentrations (e.g. p-Aminophenol 1%-5%).

    Perhaps there are more specific percentages in other versions of the document, but that is not characteristic of MSDS publications, since detailed percentages can reveal trade secrets, and that's not the purpose of the MSDS.

    Thanks.

    - Leigh
    “Wise men talk because they have something to say; fools, because they have to say something.” - Plato

  5. #55

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    The two manufacturers have published quite accurate MSDS data over the years, these give things like the pH, amount of p--Aminophenol and sulphite.

    The Rodinal formula was published in a FIAT report after WWII and aside from one additive the figures all match up perfectly. The additive is an anti-oxidant/long chain wetting gaent which Agfa Patented before WWII. There's other data as well from reliable sources such as LP Clerc as well as Dr Andresen's own book where he published p-Aminophenol hydrochloride based developer formulae. Rodinal uses the free base which needed preparing first.
    Indeed, very correct information.

    BTW Compard is filling up the chemicals, so also Rodinal from the chemical plant (new owner CCP&S) in Vaihingen - Enz. They will deliver to every body and under each label when necessary.

    Роберт
    My favorite store: http://www.fotohuisrovo.nl

  6. #56
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    One of the Bayer as opposed to Agfa MSDS sheets for Rodinal gave rather accurate information, I don't think it was supposed to be generally available information as it gave orecise percentages to 0.1%. I've two versions of that MSDS sheet and the newer one is back to generalised percentages.

    We know from Agfa's own books published first over 100 years ago that original Rodinal is a 5% solution of the p-Aninophenol free base in a strong sulphite solution with no excess hydroxide. In the early days the concentrated Sulphite solution was formed by adding Hydroxide to Metabisulphite and a characteristic of the original Rodinal and ORWO/Calbe R09 is the prescence of crystals of p-Aminiphenol free base which form when there's no excess hydroxide. This gives a pH of 11.8

    Agfa reformulated Rodinal when they merged with Gevaert in the early 1960's they dropped the p-Aminophenol concentration to 4.1% and inceased the pH to 14 to compensate with additional Hydroxide.

    Ian

  7. #57

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    So what is the final verdict? I've loved Rodinal for years and I have one bottle left of it from the Agfa Photo days and 3 and 1/2 bottles of R09. I cannot tell the
    difference.

  8. #58
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    From what I have experienced myself, I can't see the difference.
    Last edited by Jerevan; 09-17-2011 at 03:30 AM. Click to view previous post history.
    “Do your work, then step back. The only path to serenity.” - Lao Tzu

  9. #59
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    The name R09 is the original Agfa rormula number, R10 is also a P-Amininophenol developer. The problem is that now modern Rodinal can no longer be sold under the Rodinal name in all parts of the world, John at J&C registered the name in the US and tried to pass off Calbe RO9 (old version) as genuine Rodinal in imitation packaging, as Agfa own the trade name in Germany and have pulled out of the market they have no reason to sort the problem out.

    A consequence is that A&O "Rodinal" is now sold as R09 One shot, Adonal, Blazinal etcand other names, so that R09 is Rodinal, then Calbe (formerly part of Orwo) also make R09 made to the older formula.

    There is a difference between the two developers which is why there's a demand for both, many users of the Calbe version won't switch to the newer formula which isis why Mirko (Fotoimpex) sells both under his Adox brand name.

    Ian

  10. #60
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ian Grant View Post
    One of the Bayer as opposed to Agfa MSDS sheets for Rodinal gave rather accurate information, I don't think it was supposed to be generally available information as it gave orecise percentages to 0.1%. I've two versions of that MSDS sheet and the newer one is back to generalised percentages.

    We know from Agfa's own books published first over 100 years ago that original Rodinal is a 5% solution of the p-Aninophenol free base in a strong sulphite solution with no excess hydroxide. In the early days the concentrated Sulphite solution was formed by adding Hydroxide to Metabisulphite and a characteristic of the original Rodinal and ORWO/Calbe R09 is the prescence of crystals of p-Aminiphenol free base which form when there's no excess hydroxide. This gives a pH of 11.8

    Agfa reformulated Rodinal when they merged with Gevaert in the early 1960's they dropped the p-Aminophenol concentration to 4.1% and inceased the pH to 14 to compensate with additional Hydroxide.

    Ian

    5% w/v would be 50g/L.

    I recently acquired the The British Journal Photographic Almanac (62nd issue, 1923).

    Under Paramidophenol.

    It lists 300g, of Potassium Metabisulphite, 1 litre of boiling hot distilled water, 100g of Paramidophenol, add caustic soda or potash to dissolve the precipitate formed.

    As you've listed on the Modern Rodinal Substitutes article. You state no final volume is given, and that its likely 2 litres (which would be 5% as above).

    But that is the final solution, all the solutions in the book are given like this. They are based around using 1000 cm^3's of water rather than watering up to 1000 cm^3 or another amount.

    I'd estimate the final volume to be about 1.4 litres (again rough estimate), so I'd estimate roughly 7% w/v p-aminophenol.
    Last edited by Athiril; 09-17-2011 at 06:45 AM. Click to view previous post history.

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