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Thread: Zone Placement

  1. #91
    Photo Engineer's Avatar
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    Well Bill, I was thinking of all of those deserted empty parking lots along Lake Ave. They used to be full and have a waiting list for prime parking spots.

    I remember also the 3M and Dupont graphic arts coating plants off Mt. Read.

    PE

  2. #92
    MattKing's Avatar
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    It's funny, but I find that if I struggle with some of the most technical of these threads and thereby begin to understand the issues at least slightly, I also gain an improved intuitive understanding about what I want and intend to do.

    Maybe that is because I'm the sort to wonder: "why did that work the way it did"

    Thanks Stephen and everyone else who contributes.
    Last edited by MattKing; 09-11-2011 at 01:49 PM. Click to view previous post history. Reason: spell Stephen's name correctly
    Matt

    “Photography is a complex and fluid medium, and its many factors are not applied in simple sequence. Rather, the process may be likened to the art of the juggler in keeping many balls in the air at one time!”

    Ansel Adams, from the introduction to The Negative - The New Ansel Adams Photography Series / Book 2

  3. #93
    Photo Engineer's Avatar
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    Matt;

    You have offered a very good perspective on the use of the zone system and threads like this.

    PE

  4. #94
    Bill Burk's Avatar
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    I finished my tests and chart for TMY-2 in D-76.

    Now if I accept and adopt the Kodak CI chart - I can be done testing. For any paper, I can get its LER. For any subject brightness range I can get a recommended CI. From my charts I can interpolate processing time for that CI.

    So to translate my lab results to Zone System...

    Assuming Grade 2 LER 1.05, diffusion enlarger.

    Adopt 7 stops = N, because Minor White says so. Zone I to VIII

    N+1 = 6 stops SBR, CI 0.75 = 16 minutes. EI about 440

    N = 7 stops SBR, CI 0.62 = 13 minutes. EI 400

    N-1 = 8 stops SBR, CI 0.53 = about 11. EI about 320

    N-2 = 9 stops SBR, CI 0.46 = about 9:30. EI about 320

    N-3 = 10 stops SBR = CI 0.40 = 8 minutes. EI 200

    http://www.beefalobill.com/imgs/Sept9TMY2.pdf

  5. #95
    Stephen Benskin's Avatar
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    Bill, what are you basing them on? They seem a little high if you are only using the two variables 2.1 and 1.05. Are you planning on plotting a Time / CI curve to extrapolate the processing times?

  6. #96
    Bill Burk's Avatar
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    A Time vs CI curve is a great idea.

    If the times seem long, it might be because I hand develop in small trays with CompnTemp control.

    I usually hit ASA around 13 minutes, so these results are consistent with my usual Time/CI.

    The CI choices are based on 6 (1.8), 7 (2.1), 8 (2.4), 9 (2.7) and 10 (3.0) stops subject brightness range from the Kodak chart across from 1.05.

  7. #97
    Stephen Benskin's Avatar
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    Right. Would now be a good time to talk about the pros and cons of a fixed flare developmental model compared to a variable flare developmental model?

  8. #98
    Bill Burk's Avatar
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    And don't forget the "practical" flare model too. I suppose a "real" flare model should be discussed, with examples. Example deep forest with sunlight breaking through => more flare than SBR alone would indicate.

    By the way. Do you know which model is used in the Kodak CI chart?

  9. #99
    2F/2F's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Photo Engineer View Post
    I hate to say this, but over the last 60 years or so, I have known literally hundreds of "famous" photographers and truth to tell, not one of them used the zone system to my knowledge. And, when it gets down to it, the zone system is a reduced form of Densitometry and Sensitometry. Nothing more than an H&D curve with a glorified name.

    I've said this before in other posts. Sorry. I probably should not say it here and I will take a lot of heat over this.

    PE
    I am with you...but it really sounds like you don't hate saying it at all. Nor should you.
    2F/2F

    "Truth and love are my law and worship. Form and conscience are my manifestation and guide. Nature and peace are my shelter and companions. Order is my attitude. Beauty and perfection are my attack."

    - Rob Tyner (1944 - 1991)

  10. #100
    Stephen Benskin's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bill Burk View Post
    And don't forget the "practical" flare model too. I suppose a "real" flare model should be discussed, with examples. Example deep forest with sunlight breaking through => more flare than SBR alone would indicate.

    By the way. Do you know which model is used in the Kodak CI chart?
    Damn, looks like I need some new material.

    Actually, the deep forest scene might have less flare. Large amounts of dark with small amounts of light.

    The CI Chart was given to me by Dick Dickerson. It's uses the fixed flare model. I have to assume it still applies to the rest of Kodak. Interesting enough, pushing for speed has the same or almost the same CIs as the variable.

    To me, the fixed is too extreme on the ends and the variable has the potential to be too little. The practical model is just right.



 

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