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Thread: Zone Placement

  1. #111
    Stephen Benskin's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ic-racer View Post
    Seems last time we had a thread on that I got held up with a lack of a good Materials and Methods section in the papers I was reading. I was trying to get a grip on the specifics of original speed papers. Seems they photographed transparencies rather than true scenes. Not sure about the flare characteristics of that system. The paired H&D curves were made, presumably in the standard contact-print method with a step wedge.
    Are you referring to the testing method used in the First Excellent Print Test? The flare came when making the master transparencies. After that, they had a fixed, knowable image to work with. The paper that covered luminance range and flare in detail was Jones' "The Brightness Scale of External Scenes and the Computation of Correct Photographic Exposure." It's more of a page turner than the title suggests.

  2. #112
    Photo Engineer's Avatar
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    Both Mees and Haist showed this all eloquently for the average Joe with no math by showing the film curve overlaid by the first excellent print on the film curve. It just happens to occur at the ISO rating of the film or 1/3 stop over!

    PE
    Attached Thumbnails Attached Thumbnails First Excellent print.jpg  

  3. #113
    Bill Burk's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by paul ron View Post
    Just out of curiosity Bill, from your real world tests...

    What film n developer are you using?
    When you did the ASA standardizing tests, what did it come up as?
    What times have you come up with for your developing N values so far?

    .
    Film/Developer: Tray developed TMY-2 in D-76 1:1 68-degrees.
    ASA time was 13 minutes.
    I am undecided on N times because I want to double-check my LER at different print developing and toning times.

    Now this isn't a real standardized test. The D-76 was mixed 5 months ago and partial bottle for a week. I agitate too much. I get more development on the edges of my film because I stack 8 sheets at a time in the tray. Development times are possibly off by 30 seconds because I start the timer then add sheets one by one (which can take 30 seconds).

  4. #114
    Bill Burk's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Photo Engineer View Post
    Both Mees and Haist showed this all eloquently for the average Joe with no math by showing the film curve overlaid by the first excellent print on the film curve. It just happens to occur at the ISO rating of the film or 1/3 stop over!

    PE
    Now this makes me want to aim my deepest shadow to land somewhere between the T of jusT Acceptable and F of First excellent.

  5. #115
    2F/2F's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bill Burk View Post
    Now this makes me want to aim my deepest shadow to land somewhere between the T of jusT Acceptable and F of First excellent.
    Your deepest shadow, or the darkest area of shadow in which you want to show texture or detail?

    I want the truly deepest shadows to effectively, if not actually, fall completely off of the curve in many cases. If I put them where you want them in a full-ranged scene, I'd call it a terribly overexposed negative (in most cases).
    2F/2F

    "Truth and love are my law and worship. Form and conscience are my manifestation and guide. Nature and peace are my shelter and companions. Order is my attitude. Beauty and perfection are my attack."

    - Rob Tyner (1944 - 1991)

  6. #116
    Stephen Benskin's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bill Burk View Post
    Now this makes me want to aim my deepest shadow to land somewhere between the T of jusT Acceptable and F of First excellent.
    Point M is the fractional gradient speed point. It already falls almost a stop to the left of 0.10 Fb+f.

  7. #117
    Bill Burk's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by 2F/2F View Post
    Your deepest shadow, or the darkest area of shadow in which you want to show texture or detail?

    I want the truly deepest shadows to effectively, if not actually, fall completely off of the curve in many cases. If I put them where you want them in a full-ranged scene, I'd call it a terribly overexposed negative (in most cases).
    How about where I want to surprise my viewer that there is unexpected detail?

    What would a terribly overexposed negative cost in a trade-off?

    -Grain, sharpness, resolution? Not worried in 4x5 at 11x14.
    -Highlights blocking - not worried TMY-2.
    -Motion blur due to camera shake - there I have to be careful. I do a lot of handheld at 1/300. Rate the film too low and I risk this problem.

  8. #118
    Stephen Benskin's Avatar
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    Here's a comparison between normal exposure and +2 stops over exposure printed down. Tonally, both are similar. The overexposure has better separation of the shadows at the expense of the separation of the higher tones.
    Attached Thumbnails Attached Thumbnails Normal and plus exposure.jpg  

  9. #119
    Bill Burk's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Stephen Benskin View Post
    ...at the expense of the separation of the higher tones.
    Looks like that separation in the higher tones exists in the negative, could be accommodated by developing less, to fit the paper better or altering paper grade.

  10. #120
    2F/2F's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bill Burk View Post
    How about where I want to surprise my viewer that there is unexpected detail?
    That is a better description IMO, and I do the same when I want detail in a dark area. To me, the deepest shadow is maximum black by definition. If you placed the deepest shadow at that point on the curve, the overexposure would be unnecessary, and detrimental IMO.

    In other words, the way I see it, there is usually little point in placing what you want to be an empty shadow that high on the curve. You often end up paying for it on the other end of the scale, and/or with grain. Plus it takes a while longer to expose when printing. I understand the reasons for giving modern emulsions very healthy exposure, but there is also taking it too far.
    Last edited by 2F/2F; 09-14-2011 at 01:49 AM. Click to view previous post history.
    2F/2F

    "Truth and love are my law and worship. Form and conscience are my manifestation and guide. Nature and peace are my shelter and companions. Order is my attitude. Beauty and perfection are my attack."

    - Rob Tyner (1944 - 1991)



 

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