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  1. #11
    titrisol's Avatar
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    Can sepia toner be used without the bleach?
    Will that be equivalent to polysulfide toners?
    Mama took my APX away.....

  2. #12
    ann
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    This is an interesting suggestion, titrisol, and next time we have some sepia set up for toning will get it a try. Am quessing it will not be the same, but then that is a quess as i am not a chemist.

    There is a technique called pre-sulphiding where one tones the print befoe the bleaching process, then re-developed after the bleach.

    With the sepia toner , the color of the print is going to depend on the amount of additivor that is used in the toning bath, which is a bit different than with the polysufide toners.

    Someone with more chemical knowelge will have to address the sameness or differences, perhaps, Ole will help out here.

  3. #13
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ole
    "Old" Viradon was a polysulfide/selenium toner, the only one on the market at present may be Moersch' Carbontoner. As least it seems to have similar properties.
    Moersch Carbontoner is Sodiumsulfide/Selenium. Look up "Agfa 516" which shouldn't be to much different. In some old books such combination toners were referred to as "the" selenium toner. Colour and effect are markedly different from Potassiumpolysulfide toners like the brew cited above based on liver of sulfur + KRST.

    @VoidoidRamone: Are you asking for a replacement for new or old Viradon?

  4. #14
    Robert Hall's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by titrisol
    Can sepia toner be used without the bleach?
    Will that be equivalent to polysulfide toners?
    AFAIK, Not the straight sulphide. One needs the silver in the paper halogenated to have it uptake the sulphur. Use of bromides with the bleach make the silver able to grab the Sulphur from the solution.
    Robert Hall
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    Technology is not a panacea. It alone will not move your art forward. Only through developing your own aesthetic - free from the tools that create it - can you find new dimension to your work.

  5. #15
    skahde's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by titrisol
    Can sepia toner be used without the bleach?
    Will that be equivalent to polysulfide toners?
    Expect a different colour and a very slow process.

  6. #16

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    Quote Originally Posted by titrisol
    Can sepia toner be used without the bleach?
    Will that be equivalent to polysulfide toners?
    Sepia toning is a sulfideing of the silver. A bleach is not needed.
    The Hypo-Alums, Nelson's Gold Toner, Kodak's and Agfa's
    polysulfide are all direct toners; no bleach.

    Ann has mentioned the IPI in connection with toning. The IPI,
    the Image Permanence Institute at RIT, concerns itself primarily
    with microfilm which has some relavance to B&W prints. At
    least to read it does.

    As for sulfide, they are all for it. The surprise was in how little
    it takes. A most minute amount will do. Sodium sulfide at a dilution
    of 1:9,999, or .01%, will impart complete protection. There is no
    reason not to use sodium sulfide from there perspective other
    than matters of S&h of, 55 gallon drums?

    As for oder, I detect none from low percentage solutions. Dan

  7. #17
    titrisol's Avatar
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    I mention this because Kodak Brown Toner is not available in 1 gallon jugs anymore. And according to a chat we had with Ann, rjr, and some others we were looking for an alternative..... liver of sulfur price has gone up a lot.

    Quote Originally Posted by dancqu
    Sepia toning is a sulfideing of the silver. A bleach is not needed.
    The Hypo-Alums, Nelson's Gold Toner, Kodak's and Agfa's
    polysulfide are all direct toners; no bleach.

    Ann has mentioned the IPI in connection with toning. The IPI,
    the Image Permanence Institute at RIT, concerns itself primarily
    with microfilm which has some relavance to B&W prints. At
    least to read it does.

    As for sulfide, they are all for it. The surprise was in how little
    it takes. A most minute amount will do. Sodium sulfide at a dilution
    of 1:9,999, or .01%, will impart complete protection. There is no
    reason not to use sodium sulfide from there perspective other
    than matters of S&h of, 55 gallon drums?

    As for oder, I detect none from low percentage solutions. Dan
    Mama took my APX away.....

  8. #18

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    My packet of Kodak Sepia lists sodium sulfide as
    the redeveloper's only ingredient.

    IIRC, I've read that sodium sulfite is used as a 'stop' bath
    after toning with polysulfide. Sodium polysulfide is made by
    dissolving sulfur in sodium sulfide. Sodium thiosulfate, fixer,
    is made by dissolving sulfur in sodium sulfite. It would
    seem the sulfite has a greater affinity for sulfur and
    for that reason used as a 'stop'.

    The IPI has stated that sodium sulfide at high dilutions is
    entirely adequate. Dan

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