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  1. #1
    /dev/null's Avatar
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    Getting a fine grain

    Need some help, a bit puzzled here. I am looking for a fine grain, so a sales person of analog film and developer advised me to use the APH09 Rodinal, but a teacher at the academy said APH 09 Rodinal is not for fine grain. I did a film of Adox ART 50 in Rodinal and I have quite large grain. I also did a film of TMAX100 in HC-110 and got a very nice, almost grainless result. All techniques on dev via the Mass Dev Chart.

    So, now I still have Adox ART 50 and 100, I prefer liquids over the D76, so any thoughts on doing the Adox ART in HC-110 or something else? I am looking for the wide spectrum on the grays.

    Thanks.

  2. #2
    Rudeofus's Avatar
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    Whenever you mention one film&dev combo here on APUG/flickr/whereever you get about 5 people praising it as the only sensible choice and 10 more condemning it as the worst possible combo. The common saying here (from the really experienced ones) goes along the lines: "If you start, use some standard film&dev combo and only after you mastered them make changes to optimize certain parameters YOU care about - you might not even need to".

    Rodinal is said to be a developer with a lot of character but people have made great negatives with it. I am quite surprised that you saw "quite large grain" with ISO 50 film and ANY developer. HC-110 is said to be more of a standard dev so for gaining initial experience it might be a good choice. I'd go with your teacher's recommendations until you have enough experience and skill to photographically stand on your own feet.
    Trying to be the best of whatever I am, even if what I am is no good.

  3. #3
    /dev/null's Avatar
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    Ok, let me rephrase then or put my question in a different way. Say I use the Adox ART 50 and develop it in APH09 using standards which will give a certain grain. Can I alter the amount of grain considerably by using APH09 in different amounts AND/OR develop it with by more or less agitatiing.

    I am purely speaking of grain now. The amount of developer in ratio to water in combination with agitation, will this have influence on the amount of grain? If yes, my question is answered. Thanks.

  4. #4

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    I've used Rodinal with the Efke/Adox 25, 50 and 100 films, and never found grain to be an issue. I tend to use Rodinal 1+100 at 20C.

    You may want to experiment a little with the dilution & agitation of Rodinal first. The higher dilutions tend to show less grain, and with reduced agitation, lower the contrast.

    If you do want to change, take a look over on this site (Fotohuis Rovo) at your different options.

  5. #5
    hobbes's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by /dev/null View Post
    Need some help, a bit puzzled here. I am looking for a fine grain, so a sales person of analog film and developer advised me to use the APH09 Rodinal, but a teacher at the academy said APH 09 Rodinal is not for fine grain. I did a film of Adox ART 50 in Rodinal and I have quite large grain. I also did a film of TMAX100 in HC-110 and got a very nice, almost grainless result. All techniques on dev via the Mass Dev Chart.

    So, now I still have Adox ART 50 and 100, I prefer liquids over the D76, so any thoughts on doing the Adox ART in HC-110 or something else? I am looking for the wide spectrum on the grays.

    Thanks.
    Hello /dev/null
    I wonder how did you manage to get grainy pix with Adox CHS 50 ..and I think that's because you underexposed the film and tried to squeeze the results through a scanner, which gets goofy when you try to obtain information on scanned regions that are blank or plain black resulting in some digital noise added to the scanned areas. Otherwise, expose your Adox 50 @25-32 and bath in R09/Rodinal 1:50 and you'll be thrilled
    cheers
    Dominik
    http://distantmoon.pl

  6. #6
    /dev/null's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by hobbes View Post
    Hello /dev/null
    I wonder how did you manage to get grainy pix with Adox CHS 50 ..and I think that's because you underexposed the film and tried to squeeze the results through a scanner, which gets goofy when you try to obtain information on scanned regions that are blank or plain black resulting in some digital noise added to the scanned areas. Otherwise, expose your Adox 50 @25-32 and bath in R09/Rodinal 1:50 and you'll be thrilled
    Hey hobbes, that is exactly what I did Film was underexposed and then scanned and then pushed and I saw lots and lots of grain.

    So, I think my question is answered then, thanks a lot! I will try to expose the film at lower ISO. The reason why I wondered was that I get beautiful, almost grainless results with the TMAX100 in HC-110 and that made me wonder how on earth my ADOX ART50 got so grainy and 'ugly'.

    Thanks!

  7. #7
    hobbes's Avatar
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    Hey, no problem! ..I've been there and messed up alot
    cheers
    Dominik
    http://distantmoon.pl

  8. #8
    Ian Grant's Avatar
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    First it's a misconception that Rodinal doesn't produce fine grain, it can if used carefully and in fact some of the best 35mm work I've seen was shot on APX100 processed in Rodinal. Ive used bot EFKE 25 & 50 (Adox CHS) with no grain.

    However you have a combination of a high pH developer containg Hydroxide and emulsions that are quite soft and these films will surface suffer reticulate and give the appearance of greater grain if there's deviation in the temperatures during the processing, including washing.

    You must beware of over exposure with EFKE films that causes increased grain and loss of sharpness. These a re single layer emulsions and have a bit less tolerance to under or over exposure.

    Ian

  9. #9
    /dev/null's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by hobbes View Post
    Hey, no problem! ..I've been there and messed up alot
    Well, it's only since a week or two that I know there is more than developing every possible b/w film in Amaloco AM-74 and shaking it around for 3-5min in water somewhere between 20-40C Got the advice from a photography shop around the corner and I'm not sure now if the guy ever developed a film himself in the past :P. Now I understand what people mean with developing color is easier than b/w...

  10. #10
    polyglot's Avatar
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    Rodinal is a non-solvent developer, which means it doesn't reduce grain. If you start with fine, slow film, you end up with a very fine result. If you start with a coarser faster film, you get larger grain than you would have with a solvent ("fine grain") developer like D-76 or Xtol.

    So people will see huge grain on Tri-X with Rodinal, assume Rodinal is bad for grain. Whatever.

    Put some fine grain film (Acros, TMX, Pan-F, Efke/Adox 25) through Rodinal at 1+50 and you will not see a "grainless" result, but it will be very fine grain with huge resolution, good acutance and lots of detail. If you use D76 or Xtol instead, it will look smoother but that's because the solvent in those other developers softens the grain and dissolves away some detail to gain smoothness.

    You need to be careful to distinguish between the size of the grain and the magnitude (brightness ratio) of the grain; they are quite separate concepts yet people think of "graininess" as just a single scalar value. Think of it as the difference between wavelength and amplitude.

    If you under-expose and push or increase contrast in post (scanning or higher paper grades), the contrast increase will increase the grain magnitude, so don't do that.

    If you agitate Rodinal more or run it at higher temperature, you get (to overgeneralise a bit) more grain. Less agitation (3 inversions at the top of every minute, perhaps once every couple minutes) and developing at 20C will minimise grain.

    Example, Efke-25 (same as Adox CHS-25) in Rodinal 1+50:


    Perhaps you really want "smooth" not fine-grain though, in which case try using D-76 instead of Rodinal. The more-concentrated the D76 or Xtol you use, the more solvent action, therefore these developers at stock concentration will give smoother results than at 1+1 dilution, at the cost of very fine detail. And try some TMX too, that's much easier to shoot than Efke-25 and about the same resolution.
    Last edited by polyglot; 11-07-2011 at 08:39 AM. Click to view previous post history.

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