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  1. #21
    Thomas Bertilsson's Avatar
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    I've been getting about 5minute dev times with Foma 132 in my darkroom. But I start with high contrast negatives and then blast the hell out of them in the enlarger to bring contrast back to normal. They are usually not suitable for regular silver printing.
    I guess that's the beauty of diginegs. You can give them whatever contrast you want to tune your printing times, contrast, and resulting colors.
    "Often moments come looking for us". - Robert Frank

    "Make good art!" - Neil Gaiman

    "...the heart and mind are the true lens of the camera". - Yousuf Karsh

  2. #22
    Bob Carnie's Avatar
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    Actually without promoting the digi neg idea too much as digi is not what this site is about,


    I am able to teach young students who only know digital capture, the beauty of darkroom silver gelatin prints.
    IMHO this is a step in the right direction to DEFEND THE DARKROOM, by teaching legions of young souls the beauty of the red light room.

    I will get off my soapbox now but this is something to consider , as it goes a long way to make a new breed of silver gelatin devotees.
    The analoque police need to look at this and see it as a bonus , the more people we encourage to work in a darkroom the better, pushing a whole enlarger setup is in most cases impractical, but a simple contact setup can be done in any bathroom or laundry room.
    I could go on but its pointless to push this envelope here, unfortunately DPUG, does not have the membership that can make this type of discussion relevant. Its rather sad state of affairs.



    Quote Originally Posted by Thomas Bertilsson View Post
    I've been getting about 5minute dev times with Foma 132 in my darkroom. But I start with high contrast negatives and then blast the hell out of them in the enlarger to bring contrast back to normal. They are usually not suitable for regular silver printing.
    I guess that's the beauty of diginegs. You can give them whatever contrast you want to tune your printing times, contrast, and resulting colors.

  3. #23
    Thomas Bertilsson's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bob Carnie View Post
    Actually without promoting the digi neg idea too much as digi is not what this site is about,


    I am able to teach young students who only know digital capture, the beauty of darkroom silver gelatin prints.
    IMHO this is a step in the right direction to DEFEND THE DARKROOM, by teaching legions of young souls the beauty of the red light room.

    I will get off my soapbox now but this is something to consider , as it goes a long way to make a new breed of silver gelatin devotees.
    The analoque police need to look at this and see it as a bonus , the more people we encourage to work in a darkroom the better, pushing a whole enlarger setup is in most cases impractical, but a simple contact setup can be done in any bathroom or laundry room.
    I could go on but its pointless to push this envelope here, unfortunately DPUG, does not have the membership that can make this type of discussion relevant. Its rather sad state of affairs.

    Bob,

    I think it's a great idea. In the past I've tried lith printing from diginegs with the help of David Eisenlord, and it works beautifully! I'm sure you know this already...

    It's fantastic to be able to teach more people the joys of silver printing. Will you give workshops of how to make standard silver gelatin prints from 'evil capture methods' too?

    I really wish I could be in Toronto if only to lend a hand.

    - T
    "Often moments come looking for us". - Robert Frank

    "Make good art!" - Neil Gaiman

    "...the heart and mind are the true lens of the camera". - Yousuf Karsh

  4. #24
    Bob Carnie's Avatar
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    Yesterday I made continuous tone Ilford Warmtone contact silver prints , using evil capture methods, but using good analoque historical silver negative material, I wore my blinders during the evil capture method and took them off when I was using good analogue water and chemical.
    the results is the evil capture silver negative can make wonderful continuous tone good silver prints.
    This opens a whole can of whoopass as I now need to approach the Dark Lord *Harmon* to purchase rolls of good analogue film and then with Evil capture methods and lasssser devices produce enlarged negatives for good contact printing.
    The upshot of all this is I feel like I am in a Blade Runner movie trying to save my Darkroom.

    Quote Originally Posted by Thomas Bertilsson View Post
    Bob,

    I think it's a great idea. In the past I've tried lith printing from diginegs with the help of David Eisenlord, and it works beautifully! I'm sure you know this already...

    It's fantastic to be able to teach more people the joys of silver printing. Will you give workshops of how to make standard silver gelatin prints from 'evil capture methods' too?

    I really wish I could be in Toronto if only to lend a hand.

    - T

  5. #25
    MaximusM3's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bob Carnie View Post
    Actually without promoting the digi neg idea too much as digi is not what this site is about,


    I am able to teach young students who only know digital capture, the beauty of darkroom silver gelatin prints.
    IMHO this is a step in the right direction to DEFEND THE DARKROOM, by teaching legions of young souls the beauty of the red light room.

    I will get off my soapbox now but this is something to consider , as it goes a long way to make a new breed of silver gelatin devotees.
    The analoque police need to look at this and see it as a bonus , the more people we encourage to work in a darkroom the better, pushing a whole enlarger setup is in most cases impractical, but a simple contact setup can be done in any bathroom or laundry room.
    I could go on but its pointless to push this envelope here, unfortunately DPUG, does not have the membership that can make this type of discussion relevant. Its rather sad state of affairs.

    Bob,

    You are absolutely doing the right thing. The only way to keep the flame alive is by not only to drive the young to buy more film but to harness the power of digital and bringing printing once again into the spotlight as the right medium to communicate with this form of art. Let's face it, printing is fairly dead because most digi-images (and even film) are now shared on the web and on social sites. Print is not even in the vocabulary of these people and with that, so much is lost. Marrying with the analog process of printing is absolutely brilliant and with lith especially, youngsters can really exploit their creativity and have a lot of fun at the same time.

    I know this is out of the norm in this forum but as you've said, the audience is a lot bigger here and one should not be chastised for talking about promoting the analog output in a way that blends it with today's overwhelming technology. Kudos to you for taking the time to educate the youngsters in a meaningful manner.

    Max

  6. #26
    Thomas Bertilsson's Avatar
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    I see the humor, but also the importance.

    I read the other day that Salgado now shoots 'evil capture', but that he still has contact sheets made, and he edits with a loupe. Then he has evil-negs made which are contact printed to 11x14 silver gelatin paper as proofing, and inspects again. If the pictures pass the acid test they make the size prints he wants.

    I think it's wonderful that he still cares to print in silver, regardless of what was used to record the picture.

    Personally, I don't really care how people make their prints. But I do care about my darkroom, and anything to keep darkroom printing alive is a good thing, in my book.
    "Often moments come looking for us". - Robert Frank

    "Make good art!" - Neil Gaiman

    "...the heart and mind are the true lens of the camera". - Yousuf Karsh

  7. #27
    Guillaume Zuili's Avatar
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    Thomas is right. The more liquid and it means gallon, the better.
    Digi-neg is the key to have the darkroom survive for sure in a short future.

  8. #28
    Bob Carnie's Avatar
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    I want to support Harmons pledge to DEFEND THE DARKROOM , its their rally cry and it should be every single person that uses their product, but unfortunately printers like me are in our mid to late 50's and beyond and the printers of the past are well beyond operating and looking to graze. The lab business for silver gelatin is drying up, if you don't believe me ask the owners of the labs left what they think
    of this side of their operations
    Operating a darkroom to print for others in a large city is now impossible , unless one is lucky to have a stable of clients and like Elevator a framing and photography shop to help pay the bills.
    The rent is crazy, Our schools are seeing the trend to digital and at this moment most photo schools in Ontario Canada are darkroom free or soon to be so.
    How in the hell would it be a good economic decision for some young printer here on APUG to decide like I did 25 years ago to start a silver printing lab. Currently it would be economic suicide.

    APUG is the last real site dedicated to darkroom work that I am aware of and currently participating , and it is why I am still on this site, granted I only have two forums open, which is film developing and printing forums. I have clicked off all the other catagories to lesson the noise. DPUG does not have the same dedicated darkroom workers on it so there is a void right now with APUG and DPUG that is ignoring the obvious .

    Mixing some digital with Analogue is the only way to make the darkrooms survive... Now before all you with your home darkrooms jump on me and crush me, please realize that we are a very small group, and if you did a poll on actual consumption of paper , we would come to the conclusion that our voting dollars do not cut the grade for the big manufacturers.
    By interesting young students at even the high school level that a simple contact setup that can work in a laundry room, wonderful archival prints can be made using the materials that we all here cherish.
    These young students , already understand curves, density, contrast but in a different way - Digital Capture and Lightroom_
    Learning a simple printing method ( like the MAS azo crowd) is a very simple thing that any school of any size could accomodate, they already have the image capture devices, they already have the ink printers that can make negatives.

    People like Harmon, Me- You , APUG DPUG Large Format Forum, all we need to do is show how to make wet process contact prints... how easy is that.

    You open the doors to thousands and more devotees to a wet process, using the same paper and chemistry's you all salivate over.
    Harmon, Kodak, Ekfe, Rollie, Maco, Adox, all have to look at the market and decide whether they feel this is good for them to continue their coating alleys. At the rate we are going now I doubt there will be any commercial coated paper left available at a rate most of us can pay in 10 years.
    As I see it there will come a day that I will need to make the single biggest purchase of material that I have ever been involed in, so I can continue with my printing.

    So what can be done to DEFEND THE DARKROOM - I suggest that all the serious workers here, and I know a bunch of you, should petition Sean and John to solve this obvious problem, do not let the posers on this site who spend all day posting silly nonsense just to get post counts drag us down.
    I think DPUG should be brought back into this SITE , we all bless Sean to do this so as a group we can explore the wonderful options of a hybrid workflow and actually get more people to fall in love with the emerging print...... Be honest now , I am only talking to a certain few here, watching the emerging image in soft light is the most wonderful sight imaginable( short of a birth I guess) .
    The rate things are going we will only be able to see this is if we coat our own emulsions, and actually I am hedging my bets by learning everything I can about alt processes so I can watch and image come up for the rest of my life.

    DEFEND THE DARKROOM NOW,

  9. #29
    MaximusM3's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bob Carnie View Post
    I want to support Harmons pledge to DEFEND THE DARKROOM , its their rally cry and it should be every single person that uses their product, but unfortunately printers like me are in our mid to late 50's and beyond and the printers of the past are well beyond operating and looking to graze. The lab business for silver gelatin is drying up, if you don't believe me ask the owners of the labs left what they think
    of this side of their operations
    Operating a darkroom to print for others in a large city is now impossible , unless one is lucky to have a stable of clients and like Elevator a framing and photography shop to help pay the bills.
    The rent is crazy, Our schools are seeing the trend to digital and at this moment most photo schools in Ontario Canada are darkroom free or soon to be so.
    How in the hell would it be a good economic decision for some young printer here on APUG to decide like I did 25 years ago to start a silver printing lab. Currently it would be economic suicide.

    APUG is the last real site dedicated to darkroom work that I am aware of and currently participating , and it is why I am still on this site, granted I only have two forums open, which is film developing and printing forums. I have clicked off all the other catagories to lesson the noise. DPUG does not have the same dedicated darkroom workers on it so there is a void right now with APUG and DPUG that is ignoring the obvious .

    Mixing some digital with Analogue is the only way to make the darkrooms survive... Now before all you with your home darkrooms jump on me and crush me, please realize that we are a very small group, and if you did a poll on actual consumption of paper , we would come to the conclusion that our voting dollars do not cut the grade for the big manufacturers.
    By interesting young students at even the high school level that a simple contact setup that can work in a laundry room, wonderful archival prints can be made using the materials that we all here cherish.
    These young students , already understand curves, density, contrast but in a different way - Digital Capture and Lightroom_
    Learning a simple printing method ( like the MAS azo crowd) is a very simple thing that any school of any size could accomodate, they already have the image capture devices, they already have the ink printers that can make negatives.

    People like Harmon, Me- You , APUG DPUG Large Format Forum, all we need to do is show how to make wet process contact prints... how easy is that.

    You open the doors to thousands and more devotees to a wet process, using the same paper and chemistry's you all salivate over.
    Harmon, Kodak, Ekfe, Rollie, Maco, Adox, all have to look at the market and decide whether they feel this is good for them to continue their coating alleys. At the rate we are going now I doubt there will be any commercial coated paper left available at a rate most of us can pay in 10 years.
    As I see it there will come a day that I will need to make the single biggest purchase of material that I have ever been involed in, so I can continue with my printing.

    So what can be done to DEFEND THE DARKROOM - I suggest that all the serious workers here, and I know a bunch of you, should petition Sean and John to solve this obvious problem, do not let the posers on this site who spend all day posting silly nonsense just to get post counts drag us down.
    I think DPUG should be brought back into this SITE , we all bless Sean to do this so as a group we can explore the wonderful options of a hybrid workflow and actually get more people to fall in love with the emerging print...... Be honest now , I am only talking to a certain few here, watching the emerging image in soft light is the most wonderful sight imaginable( short of a birth I guess) .
    The rate things are going we will only be able to see this is if we coat our own emulsions, and actually I am hedging my bets by learning everything I can about alt processes so I can watch and image come up for the rest of my life.

    DEFEND THE DARKROOM NOW,
    Yep...it really does come down to carrying the torch because burying all of our heads deep in the sand until all of this (APUG) becomes largely irrelevant and a tiny fringe, is not the answer to the much bigger picture (pun intended). The only way an appreciation for the analog print and the process can be brought to the younger masses is indeed by marrying to digital. I also believe that film has a better chance of survival by doing that because once the darkroom becomes a more viable environment from a business standpoint, there will be a larger and more motivated audience for film as well. The status quo is by far a downhill one so why beat around the bushes? All of us here (and there aren't many) will never be able to save film just by buying a few rolls and certainly there isn't enough of anything to keep labs alive, or even remotely motivate a young entrepreneur to start one. So, will APUG simply stay on as the comfy couch for the few romantics who still believe film and paper will be around forever, or be proactive in promoting ways that actually move the art into the 21st century by educating, providing a learning platform, and a new appreciation for the analog print for the the next generation?

  10. #30
    artonpaper's Avatar
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    Since this discussion has morphed to "defending the darkroom, I'd like to add that at Brooklyn College, you can't study digital until you've taken at least one darkroom course. They're burning up film and paper.

    And this has made really curios about lith printing. I really like APUG.
    Also to the gentleman who said he'd rather have his teeth pulled than do a 20 minute developing time, I just had 6 root canals, and you may want to reconsider. And don't ever try gum printing. #;={)}

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