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  1. #31
    Guillaume Zuili's Avatar
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    The last post from Bob is a very smart analysis of the incoming situation. We should support this.
    On a side note... 6 root canals !!!
    Holy ^%$*!!!!!

  2. #32
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    Since I started this thread I do not mind it morphing into a discussion that talks about defending the darkroom. The analoque police are usually not darkroom workers so it will take quite awhile before they see this so it can be our secret.

    I am very good friends with Sean and John and support them , but it is time for us darkroom rats to stand up and be counted, before it all goes away.

    Ok 6 root canals , maybe I would change my mind and try a 20 minute dev,, I do gum prints btw and like the process.

    Quote Originally Posted by artonpaper View Post
    Since this discussion has morphed to "defending the darkroom, I'd like to add that at Brooklyn College, you can't study digital until you've taken at least one darkroom course. They're burning up film and paper.

    And this has made really curios about lith printing. I really like APUG.
    Also to the gentleman who said he'd rather have his teeth pulled than do a 20 minute developing time, I just had 6 root canals, and you may want to reconsider. And don't ever try gum printing. #;={)}

  3. #33

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    For what it's worth, I absolutely agree with what you're saying about defending the darkroom. The ONLY way for wet printing to survive is to promote its use in ANY process or combination of processes that is viable.

    I want to point out that this can also apply to the converse: film capture with digital printing. That is a viable way to help film survive, even if you and I would rather take a daily root canal than spend all day pumping out prints from a digi-printer.

    We need to hit this issue from all sides to help BOTH film and wet printing survive.

    That said, it seems that, as far as most of the old guard at APUG is concerned, this battle has been fought and "won" and it's over. I can't see a new consensus forming around bringing DPUG back into the fold.
    Jeff Glass

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  4. #34
    Bob Carnie's Avatar
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    We can only try, and you are right it can be approached from two sides, Harmon is introducing a pinhole camera loaded with film and paper.. very good IMO this allows very simple setups to get to a stage to scan and print, if that is all the school has, a big washroom could be the darkroom.

    Who is APUG - I am part of that old gaurd, my lab hosted the first APUG conference, and I still am here, I remember jorge, aggie, ted, flotsam, I think I was around the 11 or 13k member period, lots has changed and I do not think it is impossible to bring hybrid topics here. I love the darkroom threads and want to continue, unfortunately DPUG is not active enough and I think some sort of solution should be arranged.

    Darkroom rats unite ,,, we are the 1% our feeble voices should be heard.



    Quote Originally Posted by jglass View Post
    For what it's worth, I absolutely agree with what you're saying about defending the darkroom. The ONLY way for wet printing to survive is to promote its use in ANY process or combination of processes that is viable.

    I want to point out that this can also apply to the converse: film capture with digital printing. That is a viable way to help film survive, even if you and I would rather take a daily root canal than spend all day pumping out prints from a digi-printer.

    We need to hit this issue from all sides to help BOTH film and wet printing survive.

    That said, it seems that, as far as most of the old guard at APUG is concerned, this battle has been fought and "won" and it's over. I can't see a new consensus forming around bringing DPUG back into the fold.

  5. #35
    Toffle's Avatar
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    Bravo for a reasoned and (hopefully) fruitful discussion!

    There is much disheartening news these days about the future of analog photography. The way to Defend the Darkroom, is not through bitching and blaming... there is enough of that on this site alone to discourage anyone from taking up analog photography. The way to defend our foothold, or toe-hold as it were, is to carry on. Use analog processes wherever and whenever you can in your work. Tell others, show others, share and teach.

    When someone asks, "Can you still get film for that?", the answer is YES! It is not a stupid question to be mocked and ridiculed. It is a public perception that needs to be corrected. Even if it's the thousandth time you've answered it, the answer is yes. That one question is the opening of a door - an invitation to promote analog work.

    One of my last students (I am recently retired from a 30 year career as a high school music teacher) is a very talented young digital photographer. He has a good eye and an urge to learn as much as he can about photography. He has just bought his first film camera. He emails me regularly with questions of composition and exposure, etc. When he is ready for the darkroom, I will be ready to answer his questions.

    FWIW, in my classroom it was well known that I was firmly in the analog camp. Students being what they are, often teased me about my fashion sense or lack of hair, but they never showed anything but respect for my choice of analog photography. When a student got a new camera, they eventually found their way to my room to show it to me. They respected my opinion, and often said things like, "It's only digital", but I encouraged them nonetheless.

    Good luck with the Lith course, Bob. I wish I could be there to share the experience.

    Regards,
    Tom
    Tom, on Point Pelee, Canada

    Ansel Adams had the Zone System... I'm working on the points system. First I points it here, and then I points it there...

    http://tom-overton-images.weebly.com


  6. #36
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    I fully agree with Bob's view on "Defending the Darkroom".
    As far as I understand, the analog material and process (which we all find love, even if we spend more time with the computer) will have a chance to survive, only if all kinds of mixing with digital is as natural, interesting and exiting as all other kinds of photographic methods and processes.
    Wouldn't mind one A/DPUG site sharing all kinds of photographic experiences (unless it won't have a development like the British B&W photography – the only analog interesting in that journal now seems to be ads from AG and Silverprint!)
    /Bertil

  7. #37
    artonpaper's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bob Carnie View Post
    Since I started this thread I do not mind it morphing into a discussion that talks about defending the darkroom. The analoque police are usually not darkroom workers so it will take quite awhile before they see this so it can be our secret.

    I am very good friends with Sean and John and support them , but it is time for us darkroom rats to stand up and be counted, before it all goes away.

    Ok 6 root canals , maybe I would change my mind and try a 20 minute dev,, I do gum prints btw and like the process.
    There is a difference, I admit, in floating a gum print in tray and peeking every so often at it, and standing over a tray in the dark, rocking it for 20 minutes. And the other problem, for me anyway, in the silver darkroom, the next negative is always calling, saying, "Hurry up, print me, print me, I'm the one."

    BTW, Six root canals and two extractions.

    Long live film!

    Best,
    Doug

  8. #38

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    I think the best & simplest idea is to try & get DPUG happening. I recall visiting it a couple of years ago & it was poorly designed & there wasn't much interesting content. I suppose there's only so much you can write about scanning.

  9. #39
    Bob Carnie's Avatar
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    Michael

    I do agree with you, but when the name was migrated, from Hybrid to Dpug, a really nasty exchange of posts happened and what I feel the core of that site ( one person) left not to come back and since then people that seemed to be working in the areas that I enjoy left with this site as well,,, try as I can and some others the traction is very low and really the discussions are limited.
    It seems a lot of the good hybrid workers drifted back here or to Large Format and I am not interested in discussing the merits of a epson or nikon DSLr or basic scanners. Each program has its differences and trying to get into a deep discussion about a flatbed scanner is useless for me at least.
    We hit about 3.5 k members and discussions were getting good and Sean/John's vision for the site started to take hold, but that bullshit , and I am not laying any blame on anyone here basically killed the Site, and something drastic would have to happen or maybe another two years of waiting till the numbers build up again.
    Here at least there are a dedicated group of darkroom rats who are interested in discussing all darkroom there is not a strong silver gelatin fibre base group over there with the experience that is here.
    How about a Darkroom Only area here that can include any and all ways of getting images to wet paper with a warning label SOME DIGITAL DISCUSSIONS.

    Bob


    Quote Originally Posted by Michael W View Post
    I think the best & simplest idea is to try & get DPUG happening. I recall visiting it a couple of years ago & it was poorly designed & there wasn't much interesting content. I suppose there's only so much you can write about scanning.

  10. #40
    MaximusM3's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bob Carnie View Post
    How about a Darkroom Only area here that can include any and all ways of getting images to wet paper with a warning label SOME DIGITAL DISCUSSIONS.

    Bob
    That's a great idea and compromise right there, Bob. An area within APUG dedicated to digital capture/negatives but wet traditional output. I don't know why this couldn't be made to work. How do we pitch it to Sean?

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