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  1. #61
    Thomas Bertilsson's Avatar
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    Michael W - the idea is to attract more film and silver gelatin paper users. Unless you have that sort of forum out in an open forum, that just isn't going to happen.
    "Often moments come looking for us". - Robert Frank

    "Make good art!" - Neil Gaiman

    "...the heart and mind are the true lens of the camera". - Yousuf Karsh

  2. #62
    Bob Carnie's Avatar
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    Well it seems the course is filling up and a week this Sat I get to show a group of complete newbies the magic of an emerging print from their Cannon 5d's.
    There will be lots of examples and I will try to scan the prints and maybe take a couple of pics of the people in action if I can.

    my bet is that I will get one person at least to phone up B& H and order some paper and chemicals after they have witnessed the magic show.

    My next tactic will be to do the same thing but this time in a room with the lights off and a tray of prints , and just a basic setup. I want to show people how easy and fun lith printing can really be.

  3. #63
    Bob Carnie's Avatar
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    Just finished the course and a quick update. I will post images as my litthhhees send me jpegs to posts.

    Ok so the Foma 131 gloss was absolutely brilliant, We used Fotospeed Ld20 Lith Developer at a 1:8 dilution with a bit of old developer and we seasoned the dev with about 10 sheets of paper to white light to start the process in a good spot.

    Ok I hear a lot about emergence time in 20 minute range, well we were emerging in under 2 minutes and pulling wicked prints immediately.
    Paulette and I looked like absolute magicians as the students were pulling off winners immediately.

    We were using hmmmm digital epson negs on Pictorico Ultra premium OHP film with a simple two enlarger setup with one enlarger for the flash and one for the main exposing unit.
    Set up for a 30 second main exposure with lens at about mid to wide open and completely out of focus,... a large piece of glass and one box of paper. The second flash enlarger was set up to about 2 seconds wide open apeture and we ended up with either a 2, 3 or 4 second flash depending on the need

    No shit folks we had one day , eight students, and we not only made about 75 prints we also toned them with bleach sepia and selenium. Not one of the students had ever made a lith print before this weekend, and for sure at least 3 of them had never shot film or ever made any sort of print in the darkroom.. They just kept walking up to the main unit , exposing, dodging and burned as needed and flashed as required. The hardest part of the whole day was for them to learn when to pull the print, but they all got it and all made good prints.
    What was interesting was since all the files were balanced out using LAB numbers earlier in the week, the starting balance was always the same as all the negs 32 in all balanced the end points the same and what was telling is a strong lit scene required flash, a flat lit scene required no flash ,, and we controlled contrast with the flash and the pull time.
    So I hope the analogue police do not burn this thread but I have to say folks, I think Paulette and I convinced at least 3 more users to silver gelatin over the weekend, but most importantly if Gallery 44 the host gets good feedback I think this type of course could be replicated again with more beginner level students learning about printing and as well, we only needed a sink, for trays and washing area, and even more importantly we could have replicated this course in any facility with running water, a couple of hanging light bulbs like MAS uses and very simple open space that a couple of safelights can hang.


    Here is what I am learning, and yes I am on a soap box right now..... Pictorico is basically overhead projection film which has been around since I started at Fanshawe College,,, not one of my students
    gave a rat ass about the silly digital vs film debate.... Each one of them really , really , really liked working in a darkroom with the trays and paper, and I could see the enthusiasm.... making a hybrid solution is going to be the saviour of film and silver paper, I am completely convinced of this and I hope the moderators, council, head magilllas of this site come to this conclusion and decide if using silver paper is envolved in a printing process it is really worth while discussing the whole concept which does include , in some cases, scanners , digital capture and out put devices to make intermediate negatives that are then used to make historic processes.

    One little titbit I just discovered in my digital journey to hell and back..... I can make High resolution scanned film outputted to enlarged size Rollie Ortho 25 or Ilford Ortho 24 and contact that film onto different silver papers and then compare a enlarger print of the same image that has been printed on the enlarger... they match in look and quality and one could introduce a print made this way into a body of work and not know that it was done..

    What does this mean to all of us..... there can be a huge crop of people who have never used a film camera become extremely interested in using the papers that we all cherish and maybe give our manufactures a product line that works for both groups of people.

    I am not trying to start a war of discussion here, but yesterday was magic for me as most of the students were just out of school and really liked what they did.
    I will post their images with their permission as the images come in and you will be hard pressed to tell me I am wrong,,, unless of course this thread gets closed.
    The real SAVE THE DARKROOM starts here and now.

  4. #64
    Thomas Bertilsson's Avatar
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    Bob, I'm extremely happy to read this. Congratulations to you, those that become interested in printing silver, and the ability to work this hybrid process to a success.

    I did some lith prints using inkjet negatives, with the help of a good friend, and I was absolutely flabbergasted by how easy it was to do. There is definitely a future in this type of approach.

    Good for you, dude.

    - T
    "Often moments come looking for us". - Robert Frank

    "Make good art!" - Neil Gaiman

    "...the heart and mind are the true lens of the camera". - Yousuf Karsh

  5. #65
    Guillaume Zuili's Avatar
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    Lith-Heluya ! Darkroom-heluya ! Bob-Heluya !

    SAVE THE DARKROOM !

    :-)

  6. #66

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    Thank you for the thread and all the thought and hard work behind the course you ran.

    When an analogue-output method works to produce silver prints like those exhibited by Salgado (some of which I have seen in person) then it must surely be acceptable in a section/group/sub-forum here. With darkroom expansion as the aim, even if only defensively, there's some clear thinking from Mr.Carnie in his posts here.

  7. #67
    eddie's Avatar
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    As I posted earlier, I am entirely analogue, and have some reservations about controlling the addition of a hybrid forum to APUG. That being said, I'm of the belief that approaches (such as Bob's) can be the "entry-level drug" to creating more darkroom users. As such, I think a narrowly defined hybrid forum would be a "win-win" situation for us all.

  8. #68
    MaximusM3's Avatar
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    That is just wonderful, Bob. I applaud your approach, as I do believe it is a step in the right direction.

  9. #69

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    I applaud as well. I would also like to know A LOT more about "epson negs on Pictorico Ultra premium OHP film" and the flashing technique. I know you're busy, Bob, but is there a reference for making those negs? Or would you write about it here or on DPUG? I am interested both for enlarging negatives for alt process and for converting digital files (although I shoot very little digital).

    Great work!
    Jeff Glass

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  10. #70
    Bob Carnie's Avatar
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    I would like to write about it here, but I think I am taking too many liberties as it is.
    Ron Reeder and others on DPUg are experts in Digital Negs using epson printers with QTR. I am making negs by my eyes and the numbers on the info palette.
    for the lambda negs my machine calibrates the film in 21 step wedges of white to gray with D min and D max settings put forth and the machine calibrates as I make the negs.
    I am not an expert in any way in making the inkjet negs and Ron and others are way more experienced than I.
    But with that said, making negs for lith printing is as simple as this.

    ok so I will take a chance

    put pictorico in the printer.
    Convert to black and white with your favourite method and edit and sharpen as normal
    Adobe 1998 - make your image look great with your highlights almost blowing out and get deep deep blacks
    Image size 300 dpi then set your size.
    flip horizontal = so when your image is laying on the silver gelatin paper the image should be emulsion down right reading
    invert image- now you have a negative
    save as to a folder
    open image in PS send to printer and make your inkjet neg.

    test in in a real darkroom using historically chemicals like photospeed lith, stop , fix, fix, hypo wash ,, then tone as you normally would.
    I really liked the Foma as suggested and I really like 1:8 dilution, also I really like blasting the exposure form one enlarger.


    Have some fun.
    The second flash will fill in the burnt out highlights , that will give the toner something to hold on.

    Quote Originally Posted by jglass View Post
    I applaud as well. I would also like to know A LOT more about "epson negs on Pictorico Ultra premium OHP film" and the flashing technique. I know you're busy, Bob, but is there a reference for making those negs? Or would you write about it here or on DPUG? I am interested both for enlarging negatives for alt process and for converting digital files (although I shoot very little digital).

    Great work!



 

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