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  1. #81

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    Fotospeed LD20

    Bob,

    Where do you get your LD20? I have tried to find a distributor in Canada but no luck. And shipping from US across the border is next to impossible as it is designated ORMD.

    It seems that only the Rollei chems are available, and only sporadically from Canadian distributors.

    I was on a Tim Rudman course at PhotoFormulary in Sept and really liked using the LD20.

    Martin

  2. #82
    Sean's Avatar
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    I agree with David and we did try hybrid on APUG once, and behind the scenes it added a lot of work, stress and frustration more than people know. Do not underestimate how invasive digital topics can be on a forum like this. "We want a hybrid forum", ok "now we want subforums", "we want to be able to talk hybrid outside of the subforums, the subforums are just kicking us to the curb", "why can't we submit hybrid images in the galleries?", "we need hybrid gallery topics" "it's time for 100% digital gallery submissions what's the big deal?" "it's ridiculous that we can discuss hybrid on APUG but not straight digital, we need digital forums on APUG now", and on and on. It's never ending. We drew a line in the sand a while back to avoid this, APUG does not need to be all things to all people. This is a niche site with a narrow scope, and if that were a problem our numbers would be in long steady decline, actually they are always increasing.

  3. #83
    Thomas Bertilsson's Avatar
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    No concern that if the bread and butter of the existence of silver gelatin photography vanishes there will be no APUG?

    In the event that film and paper disappears, would you just let APUG die? Or become a sad place where 500 people exist and remember the 'good old days' when you could buy film and paper to make pictures?

    It sounds as though it's more of a convenience thing than anything. I understand the 'line in the sand' thing, but the fact is that DPUG is dead. There is no life in that site, with hardly anybody posting. I've tried some discussions over there, but they die out before it gets good.
    What's the alternative to DPUG? Just looking for a bit of discussion here, not throwing mud. You have the potential of creating something even greater than APUG, and at the same time make a real difference in the interest of silver gelatin interest. Personally I'm not real worried about film, but I'm really worried about paper. I share Bob's concerns.
    "Often moments come looking for us". - Robert Frank

    "Make good art!" - Neil Gaiman

    "...the heart and mind are the true lens of the camera". - Yousuf Karsh

  4. #84
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    If more people try DPUG there will be more activity there. Saying that no one should go there because no one goes there is a self-fulfilling prophecy.

    DPUG is a digital and hybrid forum for photographers with an APUG sensibility, and it's no secret that a lot of us do digital and hybrid work, even if we've agreed to play by the rules and not discuss that part of our photographic lives on APUG. At the same time, I think some of us don't feel at home discussing our digital work on the popular digital photo forums. So DPUG is for us, and we should take advantage of it.

    Personally, I've always liked the "all business" aspect of DPUG. People post when they have a serious photographic question, and they respond when they know something, and quite a few people are there to lurk and soak up some information before they get their feet wet. There's not much chit-chat or socializing, and some users are attracted by that density of information and expertise. Of course as DPUG grows that will change, but people who know how it is now, without the bustle of APUG, will remember this time as DPUG's golden age. I've participated in many internet forums over the past 20 years (now I really feel old), and the life cycle is familiar.

    One important point, though, is that I don't think we are doing enough to promote DPUG here on APUG and to encourage APUG members to check it out. Maybe what we could do is ask one of the DPUG moderators to post an occasional digest in the "System Announcements" forum, so people know what really is going on over there and have a little more incentive to take a look, without bringing hybrid discussions to APUG where we have many members who really want a there to be just one all-analogue forum on the internet.
    flickr--http://www.flickr.com/photos/davidagoldfarb/
    Photography (not as up to date as the flickr site)--http://www.davidagoldfarb.com/photo
    Academic (Slavic and Comparative Literature)--http://www.davidagoldfarb.com

  5. #85
    Thomas Bertilsson's Avatar
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    Appreciate your response, David.

    I am not as convinced as you are of the success of DPUG, and even if it works out to turn it into a hybrid powerhouse, it is likely to take a long time, decimating the effect a similar attempt could have here on APUG.
    My fear is that silver based photography gets reduced too much, to the point that only a few either rich or sacrificial individuals can practice, leaving APUG and analog lovers in the dust.
    "Often moments come looking for us". - Robert Frank

    "Make good art!" - Neil Gaiman

    "...the heart and mind are the true lens of the camera". - Yousuf Karsh

  6. #86
    Sean's Avatar
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    DPUG is somewhat in beta still and quite neglected. There has been zero investment there for spreading any word and we hope to change that as soon as humanly possible. One reason for migrating APUG/DPUG to new robust infrastructure was to prepare for the coming DPUG push. The only thing that has been holding that back is time and finances. I recently sold my home and am moving to an area with a far lower cost of living, so am very excited to get back to having disposable income for things like getting DPUG rolling.

    Thomas, I do have some questions for you though and I hope it's not taken the wrong way. What hybrid process do you use? If the final result of that hybrid process can be replicated 100% digitally... I am talking a side by side comparison is absolutely 100% indistinguishable. Would you still use the hybrid process or go with the 100% digital work flow? Would you make a digital negative and hand made carbon print, or would you make a digital carbon print using a new type of home based $200 10,000dpi 3D printer (the 3D printer enabling the "digital" carbon print to have the subtle telltale raised surface features of a traditional carbon print)? If both were 100% indistinguishable what would you use to create the final work? Maybe you will not say "the digital process", but I know a great many who would. When digital camera sensors can replicate the random halide of film and films rich 3 dimensional qualities to the point even a microscope can not discern the difference, would you still shoot film?

    I'm fairly confident some/many hybrid folks will ditch hybrid as digital methods finally "get there" for them. When a 20x40inch 20,000 dpi dedicated B&W dye-sub print for $10 can look identical to a silver gelatin print or lambda based silver gelatin print, what will these hybrid users then choose? Should we cater to that base of photographers caught in between processes and change the entire site just for them? I'm not saying ALL hybrid users are in limbo, and I'm not intending to insult anyone who sees themselves as always using hybrid no matter what (because the love it and are passionate about it). Can you argue that most hybrid users are not in limbo simply waiting for the digital side to catch up, then they'll be off? Should that base of photographers in waiting be considered the saviors of analog photography? How much longer will they be around once digital hits several more levels of mind blowing improvements vs. the base of members on APUG who chose long ago that their form of photography is analog based and that is that?

    The only argument I can really see is that exposing some to hybrid process may trigger their curiosity, and they'll convert more work flow to the analog side. Fair enough argument, but to suggest APUG has a duty to cater to this is asking too much -of any web community for that matter. Or to suggest APUG will be responsible for the death of traditional for not embracing digital is again putting the weight of the world on this small discussion board. And that again takes us back to DPUG which has a heavy hybrid slant, there is no reason a robust DPUG can not successfully open some eyes to traditional methods and contribute exactly what you say we need.

  7. #87
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    I've posted questions at DPUG a few times and I've always gotten useful answers from knowledgeable people. I don't know what the answer is, but I know we need to encourage more use of "real" paper and chemicals to make sure they're around for years to come. I think the standard, "You should ask that at DPUG," response is a bit lame (and I know I've done it a few times myself). I wonder if there's a way to integrate the sites without making DPUG a subforum of APUG?
    Seeing a print come up in the developer is what really got lots of photographers hooked on using a darkroom. Many people just don't have the space for one (or think they don't). Again, I don't know what the answer is, but getting as many APUGers as possible to show off darkrooms to people is one way to start.
    I know the arguments for detaching the hybrid forum - I was around back then. I wasn't totally in favor of it then and I can also see how useful DPUG could be (like I said, I've gotten useful answers there). I just think that more integration might help. Automatically registering people for both with the same username and pw might be a start so they don't have to do it all over again might help. Being able to hit a button on a post to automatically post it on DPUG (or from DPUG to APUG) might help. It would at least make it easier to cross-post.
    I know the aim of APUG is to be able to discuss analog methods only. I just think that over time it's also become a place to fight for the life of analog and to do what we can to keep it around. We show the world that people do use film, paper, and chemistry and that we buy it and want to continue doing so. I know that using hybrid methods isn't the goal of APUG. But if people use film to get the shot and print digitally or use digital to get the shot and then use analog to print it are all still using analog methods for part of the process. Somehow integrating the groups could help to keep both film and paper around.
    Random thoughts late at night after a few glasses of wine....

  8. #88
    Sean's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by winger View Post
    Somehow integrating the groups could help to keep both film and paper around.
    Random thoughts late at night after a few glasses of wine....
    That has always been my ultimate goal, but software gets in the way. What little is available to connect 2 forums to one another is often a "hack" riddled with risk and bugs. I haven't given up yet, there are many forum owners in my shoes wanting to integrate 2 or more forums to share data between them. Maybe we can make progress soon. I'll check and see what the latest developments are.

  9. #89
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    Start small. The solution isn't technological (at least not in the beginning steps.) It honestly sounds like DPUG is something you'd like to grow, but actions over many years belie the words. Did you know that the Alternative Processes subforum here still references Hybridphoto? and that it never linked to the site? Anyone not in the know could fairly assume that the page the link goes to is the extent of it. The clear message has been disdain or maybe embarrassment for the "sister site". That's not a recipe to get people engaged.

    I'll resist going all tedious on how sad the whole thing has been to those of us who had such high hopes for Hybridphoto, but the beast that's evolved is probably never going to please many people.

    2 cents only (probably less)
    d

  10. #90
    Thomas Bertilsson's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sean View Post
    DPUG is somewhat in beta still and quite neglected. There has been zero investment there for spreading any word and we hope to change that as soon as humanly possible. One reason for migrating APUG/DPUG to new robust infrastructure was to prepare for the coming DPUG push. The only thing that has been holding that back is time and finances. I recently sold my home and am moving to an area with a far lower cost of living, so am very excited to get back to having disposable income for things like getting DPUG rolling.

    Thomas, I do have some questions for you though and I hope it's not taken the wrong way. What hybrid process do you use? If the final result of that hybrid process can be replicated 100% digitally... I am talking a side by side comparison is absolutely 100% indistinguishable. Would you still use the hybrid process or go with the 100% digital work flow? Would you make a digital negative and hand made carbon print, or would you make a digital carbon print using a new type of home based $200 10,000dpi 3D printer (the 3D printer enabling the "digital" carbon print to have the subtle telltale raised surface features of a traditional carbon print)? If both were 100% indistinguishable what would you use to create the final work? Maybe you will not say "the digital process", but I know a great many who would. When digital camera sensors can replicate the random halide of film and films rich 3 dimensional qualities to the point even a microscope can not discern the difference, would you still shoot film?

    I'm fairly confident some/many hybrid folks will ditch hybrid as digital methods finally "get there" for them. When a 20x40inch 20,000 dpi dedicated B&W dye-sub print for $10 can look identical to a silver gelatin print or lambda based silver gelatin print, what will these hybrid users then choose? Should we cater to that base of photographers caught in between processes and change the entire site just for them? I'm not saying ALL hybrid users are in limbo, and I'm not intending to insult anyone who sees themselves as always using hybrid no matter what (because the love it and are passionate about it). Can you argue that most hybrid users are not in limbo simply waiting for the digital side to catch up, then they'll be off? Should that base of photographers in waiting be considered the saviors of analog photography? How much longer will they be around once digital hits several more levels of mind blowing improvements vs. the base of members on APUG who chose long ago that their form of photography is analog based and that is that?

    The only argument I can really see is that exposing some to hybrid process may trigger their curiosity, and they'll convert more work flow to the analog side. Fair enough argument, but to suggest APUG has a duty to cater to this is asking too much -of any web community for that matter. Or to suggest APUG will be responsible for the death of traditional for not embracing digital is again putting the weight of the world on this small discussion board. And that again takes us back to DPUG which has a heavy hybrid slant, there is no reason a robust DPUG can not successfully open some eyes to traditional methods and contribute exactly what you say we need.
    Sean,

    Thank you for adding yet more to the discussion.

    In order to attempt to answer your question - for me it doesn't matter how a print is made, based on viewing pleasure alone. I don't care one iota how others make their work. A good photo is a good photo. That's it. The rest is all about preference and enjoyment.
    I hate working with digital, simply because I don't use my hands to create. It's a thing of caressing the materials with my own hands that matters to me. So I don't mind the making of a lith print using a digital negative, as long as I don't have to make the negative myself.
    See, it doesn't matter if digital finally 'gets there' or not. As far as I'm concerned, it's already there. I choose different methods, because I love doing it. No other reason, other than proven archival stability of silver gelatin, or platinum, or gravure. Inkjet frankly makes me nervous at best.

    I'm also not suggesting that APUG or DPUG is responsible for carrying the world of silver gelatin photography and its future. I think what I, and many others in this discussion, are simply alluding to the fact that we can do SOMETHING to help, by just changing how we operate. Bob is doing an excellent job by teaching digital photographers how to make fabulous silver gelatin lith prints from digital negatives. That encourages use of silver gelatin paper and chemistry. That's a good thing for all of us. The more people there are like that, the better the chances are of helping this art form survive. Whether that comes from DPUG, APUG, its members, or sponsors, or advertisers, or subscribers, I don't really care. But it is in our own best interest to do SOMETHING. Bob is getting people to print silver from digital. I have bought a few inexpensive but nice cameras and given them away to people that have shown an interest in photography. I have taught them how to process film and given them access to my darkroom to print. I send them film now and then along with encouragement to pursue a darkroom of their own. I know others that do the same.

    I'm very happy to have caught your attention, because I feel it's an important matter, and together I think we can do the world of silver gelatin photography, both traditional and hybrid, a favor by exploring the possibilities, and get more people into using the amazing materials we have today, to increase the 'fan base'. We're all smart people here, and I think if we smash our foreheads together we have the opportunity to do something positive for the community, and indirectly affect the future of APUG as we know it today.
    "Often moments come looking for us". - Robert Frank

    "Make good art!" - Neil Gaiman

    "...the heart and mind are the true lens of the camera". - Yousuf Karsh



 

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