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  1. #21
    Helen B's Avatar
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    Here's the article.

    Best,
    Helen
    PS I'll stick with the temperature change theory - it causes lateral stress, and thus lateral movement, in the emulsion. The effects are often subtle.

  2. #22

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    Quote Originally Posted by oboeaaron
    Aha. Kodak went to a new manufacturing process/facility a couple of years ago (concurrent with the release of "New Improved" Tri-X) and the net result (as reported by former Kodak researchers, including the woman who developed XTOL) was that Tri-X got slightly finer grain, but TMY got slightly larger grain. In fact, current Tri-X is supposed to have finer grain than TMY at this point. I am late for work so I don't have time at the moment but later I will try to dig up the article where I read this.
    Regards,
    Aaron
    Silvia Zawadzki was the product tester for Xtol, and Dick Dickerson was the project director. It my understanding that TMY had been made at the new plant for years, whereas tri-x was just recently moved there. In any case you're right about their conclusion, namely that tri-x now has finer grain than TMY. (I'm unclear if both films have changed characteristics, or if only Tri-x did.)

  3. #23
    Ed Sukach's Avatar
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    Reticulation IS caused by a sudden temperature change between solutions in processing. It has the appearance of "alligator skin", or a dry, cracked, lake bed.

    It may happen between any two solutions ... the last I've seen was with *cold* fixer (approximately 5 degrees C below the developer). The greater the difference, either way, the more pronounced the effect.
    Carpe erratum!!

    Ed Sukach, FFP.

  4. #24

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    Quote Originally Posted by Peter De Smidt
    Silvia Zawadzki was the product tester for Xtol, and Dick Dickerson was the project director. It my understanding that TMY had been made at the new plant for years, whereas tri-x was just recently moved there. In any case you're right about their conclusion, namely that tri-x now has finer grain than TMY. (I'm unclear if both films have changed characteristics, or if only Tri-x did.)
    Thanks for providing the names, Peter. I did manage to dig up the article where I read this:

    http://www.phototechmag.com/previous...dickerson.html

    Surprisingly, they found that the new TMY is not only grainier than old TMY and new Tri-X, it is grainier than old Tri-X! Still, it's a lovely film in XTOL.

    Cheers,
    Aaron

  5. #25
    Helen B's Avatar
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    Where do I go wrong? Are my posts too short? (maybe rhetorical, maybe serious, but it's made me think).

    Best,
    Helen

  6. #26
    david b's Avatar
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    This is not reticulation. I know what that looks like. This is just bigger grain.

  7. #27
    Helen B's Avatar
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    As I said before, my experience is that thermal shock can result in an increase in graininess without the classic mottled look of reticulation - just an increase in the ever-present grain clumping. I have found that controlling the temperature of all stages of the process is important if you wish to achieve optimum quality. However, I'm not saying that this is definitely the case here, only that it sounds possible.

    Best,
    Helen

  8. #28
    david b's Avatar
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    helen,
    your idea seems the most likely. i will be watching all temps in the future.

  9. #29
    Helen B's Avatar
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    I guess that I should put some numbers to my vague ramblings, and emphasise that what I call 'subtle' and what you call 'bigger grain' may indeed be two different things, as our words suggest.

    Because my observations on increased graininess are based on my poorly controlled developing sessions rather than my well controlled sessions, I couldn't put hard numbers on anything. Even if I could, they might not be relevant to other process combinations. However, I try to keep post-development temperatures within 2 or 3 C (say up to 6 F) so your use of 60°F wash water after 68°F wouldn't seem way off - but it might be, and might the water have been even cooler? It seems worth checking as a source of the problem.

    Counter argument:
    Richard Henry, in what has to be one of the most lively technical books ever written*, Controls in Black-and-White Photography, says that this temperature control stuff is all a myth harking back to days when emulsions were softer, and backs up his opinion with the results of some tests with Tri-X in D-76. One of his tests included a change from 68°F dev to 62°F stop. He found no detectable change in measured granularity 'within experimental error'. He did, however, only test with Tri-X. Maybe that matters, maybe it doesn't.

    So, it's a possible 'maybe' as far as I'm concerned. One of those cases where avoiding a potential problem is probably easier than defining it.

    Best,
    Helen
    *and either 'Heretical And Only Fit For Burning' or 'The Honest, Iconoclastic Truth About Everything' (or something inbetween that's worth reading).

  10. #30
    Ian Grant's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by david b
    This is not reticulation. I know what that looks like. This is just bigger grain.
    Actually while it isn't the old fashioned classic reticulation it is a part of what used to happen. Now films are prehardened its almost impossible to get films to reticulate, talking major manufacturers products. This is a result of having to make colour films that could be processed C41 & E6, the pre-hardening was also added to B&W film emulsions.

    In old fashioned reticulation two things happened clumping of the silver grains and a crazing of the gelatin.

    Pre-hardening stops most of the sudden shrinking or expansion of the emulsion and the crazing but the clumping can still occur if there's a sudden change in temperature.

    I've seen it first hand as I said earlier in this thread, I shot 5"x4" TMX & 35mm TMY in my Leica - perfect results, my colleague shot 6x7 on TMY at the same time, he used my constantly replenished X-tol and my fix. His negs were excellent in exposure & development but very grainy, the ONLY thing that differed was control over the temperatures of the process after development.

    I'd add that his 6x7 negs printed 10x8 were very grainy while my 35mm images had barely visible grain at the same size.

    Can only say agree totally with HelenB about this. But will add one thing it seems to happen less with APX100 & TMX, and most with TMY. They are the only B$W conventional films I use apart from EFKE 25. And thats another story - it doesnt reticulate it just drops of the film base if abused.

    Moral of this tale be as tight on temperature with B&W films as you should be in colour, and if you ever processed Ferrania in the 70's you know what I mean :-)

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