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  1. #71
    Roger Cole's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by clayne View Post
    This is absolutely not my experience at all. Both MCC original and MCC ADOX respond to selenium in fairly predictable and reasonably significant fashion, from what I've found in using both. MGIV is notoriously resistant to the effects of Se - mainly dropping blacks (beneficial) but not changing tone much other than going colder and colder magenta the longer it's toned. MGWT is of course much more responsive. Between MGWT and MGIV, I place MCC in the middle, with MGIV far in the direction of most resistant to Se toner.
    Well I can't account for our different experiences but yours is absolutely not mine. MCC 110 responds, but very slowly. MGIV FB responds much more rapidly - not exactly rapidly, but much more so than MCC. I use MGWT too but haven't toned it in selenium. I use dilute brown toner for that paper.

    And I don't know how to reconcile "not changing tone much" with "other than going colder and colder magenta." That's exactly what changing tone in selenium means, and what happens with neutral and cold tone papers. Warm tone papers are a very different thing.

    Could it be due to differences in developer? Both my MCC 110 and MGIV FB are developed in Ethol LPD. MGWT I develop in Harmon WT.

    EDIT: And, it depends what you are trying to do with it. On neutral or cool papers my use of selenium is to 1) remove the slight green cast I find unpleasant, 2) increase d-max, and 3) provide archival benefit. I don't want a radical tone change like the reds you will get with se on warm tone papers, I want to cool the green out and deepen the blacks. MGIV responds like this better than MCC 110, at least for me.
    Last edited by Roger Cole; 07-09-2013 at 07:41 PM. Click to view previous post history.

  2. #72
    clayne's Avatar
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    I've observed pretty much the same effects while using Dektol, Seletol, and 130. When I say "not change tone much" I'm talking the classic warmtone paper response to Se toner.

    It's not just me either, MGIV has been widely reported as others as not toning "well" in selenium toner. Sure, it may go dmax faster, but as far as conversion of silver to silver selenide such that reflected light gives it a different color/tint entirely - MGIV is not that paper. Even if MCC takes longer, for whatever reason, the eventual end-result is more color shift. Selenium toning doesn't always have to be cold magenta. My go-to neutralish paper (when it was around) was Emaks #2/#3 and this always had a nice balanced tone in KRST and did not give off the feeling of "coldness." MCC also settles into a similar balanced look, I've found. MGIV, while a great paper, is like frozen grape juice in selenium.
    Stop worrying about grain, resolution, sharpness, and everything else that doesn't have a damn thing to do with substance.

    http://www.flickr.com/kediwah

  3. #73
    Roger Cole's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by clayne View Post
    I've observed pretty much the same effects while using Dektol, Seletol, and 130. When I say "not change tone much" I'm talking the classic warmtone paper response to Se toner.

    It's not just me either, MGIV has been widely reported as others as not toning "well" in selenium toner. Sure, it may go dmax faster, but as far as conversion of silver to silver selenide such that reflected light gives it a different color/tint entirely - MGIV is not that paper. Even if MCC takes longer, for whatever reason, the eventual end-result is more color shift. Selenium toning doesn't always have to be cold magenta. My go-to neutralish paper (when it was around) was Emaks #2/#3 and this always had a nice balanced tone in KRST and did not give off the feeling of "coldness." MCC also settles into a similar balanced look, I've found. MGIV, while a great paper, is like frozen grape juice in selenium.
    Well ...ah-hem, I'm not looking for "classic warm tone paper response" to selenium from a neutral paper!

    See my explanation in my edited post above. The last thing I want is to turn my MCC 110 or MGIV into selenium red. Of course it doesn't "have to be cold magenta" but a slight change in that direction is exactly what I want on these papers.

    Bottom line is, use what you like - I like MCC 110, it's an excellent paper, but having tried both I'm moving more and more toward MGIV and that's mainly because *I* like the way it responds to dilute (1+19) KRST better.
    Last edited by Roger Cole; 07-09-2013 at 07:53 PM. Click to view previous post history.

  4. #74
    clayne's Avatar
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    I guess the reason I'm debating on it with you so much Roger, is that MGIV is commonly noted as having fairly ineffective response to selenium toners. I just found it surprising that you noted the paper for it's response to KRST and how most people note the complete opposite.

    The toner response I'm taking about is not polywarmtone style satanic red. I'm talking balanced semi-brown/eggplant/greyish/etc.

    That being said, I enjoy the debate, as I'd much rather be debating about this than CMOS vs CCD.
    Stop worrying about grain, resolution, sharpness, and everything else that doesn't have a damn thing to do with substance.

    http://www.flickr.com/kediwah

  5. #75
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    While I love how you all go thru the greatness-virtues-compare-contrast of MCC, I thought this was a APX 100 thread

    So, question, to the folks who bought up a ton of this back in '05, are you surprised it is still readily avail in 2013 with expiration dates of 12/2015? At this rate the last of APX 100 "fresh" could be 2020!!

    That's my read! The longest discontinuance of any product in history (ok a little embellished but still).....

    I ain't complaining, just a little surprised and buying a nice stash of APX 100 along the way....
    Andy

  6. #76
    Roger Cole's Avatar
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    MGIV doesn't do the "semi-brown/eggplant/greyish/etc." But I've never TRIED to get that out of either it or MCC 110, just cool it down a bit and increase D-max. Usually the more profound color change you're talking about takes stronger toner dilutions than I use too, at least with other than warmtone papers. And MGIV is fairly resistant, just not as much so as MCC 110 in my experience. I actually have a couple of comparison prints but scanning just won't show the subtly and it doesn't prove anything anyway since you can make a scan whatever tone you want.

    Zsas is right. If the last APX 100 was made in '05, how far out will the expiration dates be, assuming it's been deep frozen since?

  7. #77
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    I'm gonna call 2 more cycles, one batch a expiry 2017 and the swans song expiry a
    2020....
    Andy

  8. #78
    clayne's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by zsas View Post
    While I love how you all go thru the greatness-virtues-compare-contrast of MCC, I thought this was a APX 100 thread

    So, question, to the folks who bought up a ton of this back in '05, are you surprised it is still readily avail in 2013 with expiration dates of 12/2015? At this rate the last of APX 100 "fresh" could be 2020!!

    That's my read! The longest discontinuance of any product in history (ok a little embellished but still).....

    I ain't complaining, just a little surprised and buying a nice stash of APX 100 along the way....
    Yeah, I find it a bit interesting as well - it's like the never-ending master roll.
    Stop worrying about grain, resolution, sharpness, and everything else that doesn't have a damn thing to do with substance.

    http://www.flickr.com/kediwah

  9. #79
    ozphoto's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by zsas View Post
    While I love how you all go thru the greatness-virtues-compare-contrast of MCC, I thought this was a APX 100 thread

    So, question, to the folks who bought up a ton of this back in '05, are you surprised it is still readily avail in 2013 with expiration dates of 12/2015? At this rate the last of APX 100 "fresh" could be 2020!!

    That's my read! The longest discontinuance of any product in history (ok a little embellished but still).....

    I ain't complaining, just a little surprised and buying a nice stash of APX 100 along the way....
    I'll admit I was really surprised at the long date on the batch I bought - I actually thought is was going to be much shorter in date, but was very happy when my assumption proved false.

    If they were still manufacturing their *last* batches at that time, I guess even longer dated could be a distinct possibility? Whilst they went under, so to speak, surely the last lot of emulsion(s) didn't get tossed away once it was all rubber stamped? Or am I missing something?

    Certainly an interesting conundrum, about my most favourite film; I just hope there's still some floating around when I finish the lot I currently have - and at this rate, it could still be advertised as "fresh dated EXP 12/2035"!!

  10. #80
    zsas's Avatar
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    What do you say we do an "audit"?

    Is there any data in these edge marks?

    The last roll I bought the other day, that has an expiration of 12/2015, has this edge mark....UD7050

    Anyone make rhyme or reason of this?

    Is that some sort of master roll number or merely the emulsion number or something.....
    Andy



 

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