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  1. #251

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    Quote Originally Posted by Rudeofus View Post
    The thread has 25 pages by now and quite a few facts were provided by those you attacked in your posting, both by "pessimists" and "optimists". The vast majority of APUGers have shot Kodak film, some, including myself, like their emulsions a lot, so you shouldn't act surprised that the troubles at Kodak trigger an emotional debate. Given CGWs late contributions, the term "realist" has been devalued here quite a bit lately. You walked into this thread late, probably never bothered to read what has been written about this topic before, think everybody here is happy to eat some insults because our long wait for your superior insights is finally over.
    The sad fact is that we simply don't know what's going to happen.

    I think PE has made some of the most sobering posts about the realities of producing film, and it just doesn't sound good. I'd like to believe that film will continue as a cottage industry, but even if it does, at what expense to the hobbyists without deep pockets? For them, it might as well be the end of life as we know it. So yes, some are going to be pretty upset about things.

    While it's true Ilford products are still around long after their bankruptcy, that was a while ago, and the market has changed even since then. Would they be able to pull off the same thing now, with the global markets as they are today? Dunno.

    What ever happens, I'd be surprised if anything drastic happens overnight. Still, no doubt significant change will be coming.

  2. #252

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    Quote Originally Posted by goo0h View Post
    The sad fact is that we simply don't know what's going to happen.
    ... and that's a FACT, for all including the alleged "empiricists" and "realists".

  3. #253
    bill schwab's Avatar
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    http://www.forbes.com/sites/ericsavi...bound-sharply/

    Looks like Kodak film will survive yet another sky is falling scare?

    Time to get back to work.
    Last edited by bill schwab; 01-10-2012 at 10:38 AM. Click to view previous post history.

  4. #254
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    This was posted about an hour ago on MSNBC "Bottom Line":
    "As we complete Kodak’s transformation to a digital company, our future markets will be very different from our past, and we need to organize ourselves in keeping with that evolution,” Perez said.

    It is announced that they "restructuring to simplify its business" . . . "cut costs as it struggles to transform itself in the face of its shrinking film business."

    And that it is creating "a new and simpler business structure designed to increase productivity, reduce cost and accelerate its transformation into a digital company that delivers sustainable profitability and creates value for its stakeholders."

    Just sounds like the film side of the business is not able to keep the rest of the business afloat.
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    Three Sony Mavica Digital cameras, and a Fuji FinePix S2800HD I got after the partner died.. HP Photosmart E327
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  5. #255

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    Quote Originally Posted by billschwab View Post
    http://www.forbes.com/sites/ericsavi...bound-sharply/

    Looks like Kodak film will survive yet another sky is falling scare?


    Thanks for the link Bill.




    With the possibility of Kodak failing I've made efforts to buy lamps and a back up baseplate glass for my IQsmart scanner. This would seem like a simple thing to do. Kodak makes and sells a product, I call them and offer them money in exchange for their products. Should just take a phone call or two and then just the exchange of a credit card number. Right? Well it's 5 business days and counting, 11 phone calls to Kodak, contacting 7 different people in 4 or 5 different departments and the final order is still not confirmed.

    Last year when I attempted to buy the last update to the oxygen software for the scanner I asked a NYC camera store who was a dealer for the Kodak IQSmart scanners to get the update for me, an update that was already in common use and readily available. They emailed and called Kodak 5 times over a period of 4 months. Finally they sent what they described as an almost abusive email to Kodak questioning why it's so hard for Kodak to simply put a disc in an envelope in exchange for a check for $950. It too about 4-5 months but I got the update.


    When I first attempted to buy the scanner I called their sales dept and could only leave a voice mail. In that voicemail I stated that I knew the cost of the scanner and was ready to make the purchase. All they need do is call me back and take my money. No one returned the call, so a week later I called again and left a similar message. This went on for about a month and I finally ended up finding the scanner at a photo dealer. Two to three months after my first call to Kodak, and well after I made the purchase from a dealer, I got a call from a Kodak sales rep asking me if I was interested in buying the scanner.

    I then attempted to buy the oil mount station for it. That also took about 2 months.

    The bottom line is that every time I come to Kodak with money in my hands and the desire to give it to them, they do everything they can to avoid accepting it. Given the consistency of the issue, I can not assume that my situation with them was unusual. I wonder about how much business they must be losing because of this lack of sales competency and efficient customer service. I can not imagine any company run this way surviving in a market of "one click" purchases on line.

  6. #256
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    Quote Originally Posted by billschwab View Post
    http://www.forbes.com/sites/ericsavi...bound-sharply/

    Looks like Kodak film will survive yet another sky is falling scare?
    Film still brings in revenues from sunk cost capital, so they'll continue to produce if there is a market. The problem is Kodak has debt, pension, environmental and medical obligations left over from being a much larger company with higher revenues and the borrowing to transition from its film sales cash cow to a digital supplier. That we know. And we know the emulsion market is falling still.

    EK financials say they are burning through nearly $650 million/year EBITDA, and they just secured $250 million last year in high cost secured debt. Pension and debt servicing costs alone say they are bankrupt and their earnings in their non-film side are only about 20% replacing their lost revenues (that's a very loose guesstimate). Without pension and debt servicing, EK's print and printer businesses look to be profitable. The film and entertainment side is the big question market because demand is still going south. Part of what is leading to a bankruptcy option is the inability of the company to day-to-day run film ops under this scenario while simultaneously paying obligations. This is causing the liquidity concern.

    Today's announcement only streamlines their management, so it's a rearranging the deck chairs. EK has a very complex capital structure because of many diverse product lines. They used to be a vertically integrated company, and now are fractured, so a standalone measure of the whole is not applicable to see the value of various parts. Nevertheless, at this point, all liabilities are inseparable.

    I think PE has made some of the most sobering posts about the realities of producing film, and it just doesn't sound good. I'd like to believe that film will continue as a cottage industry, but even if it does, at what expense to the hobbyists without deep pockets? For them, it might as well be the end of life as we know it. So yes, some are going to be pretty upset about things.
    I agree. Then inability to scale down production to demand is the second biggest question mark, specific to EK (and to Fuji). The bigger question is what is the aggregate consumer demand (leaving motion picture demand aside)? We know that film camera demand is negative and that darkrooms are going for pennies on the dollar in used markets (or are junked). These are not captured in data points, but I am pretty certain if EK goes bankrupt they will have some market research on the scope of the demand plunge. Regardless, a trustee may have to do this analysis for the sell-off diligence.

    If demand falls too far too fast, and EK buying power disappears from the raw material market, and Fuji film production contracts further, then costs for film production could rise as basic microeconomics kicks in. Prices rising substantially will cause more consumers to leave and there's a vicious circle kicking in. This is why I say that Ilford and the other smaller players are going to be deeply troubled if EK film operations cannot be re-capitalized and some value found in its current products and industrial assets. Some bigger players in the motion picture industry may have influence here.

    Still, film started from a huge market size and has a passionate following as a medium of creativity. The adherents on the cinema side are also very passionate with professional technical requirements that are no longer much of a factor on the photography side. I hope whoever looks over the film production assets has an eye on that passion and the history behind film and can find a new market model.

  7. #257
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    Quote Originally Posted by Coffeehound View Post
    This was posted about an hour ago on MSNBC "Bottom Line".

    http://www.forbes.com/sites/ericsavi...bound-sharply/
    "The new commercial group will include the old graphic communications segment, plus entertainment imaging and commercial film. The consumer segment will include the old consumer digital segment, plus paper and output systems, event imaging solutions, consumer film and intellectual property."

    So they are splitting film across two divisions? Sheesh, they really ARE lost...

    Ed
    "I only wanted Uncle Vern standing by his new car (a Hudson) on a clear day. I got him and the car. I also got a bit of Aunt Mary's laundry, and Beau Jack, the dog, peeing on a fence, and a row of potted tuberous begonias on the porch and 78 trees and a million pebbles in the driveway and more. It's a generous medium, photography." -- Lee Friedlander

  8. #258

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    Quote Originally Posted by Neanderman View Post
    "The new commercial group will include the old graphic communications segment, plus entertainment imaging and commercial film. The consumer segment will include the old consumer digital segment, plus paper and output systems, event imaging solutions, consumer film and intellectual property."

    So they are splitting film across two divisions? Sheesh, they really ARE lost...

    Ed
    The issues I am currently have with purchasing from Kodak are partly because the lamps I need are considered consumables, which you get from one dept, and the baseplate glass is a part which you get from another dept..... So I am not surprised that they plan on splitting film into two different departments.

  9. #259
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rudeofus View Post
    The thread has 25 pages by now and quite a few facts were provided by those you attacked in your posting, both by "pessimists" and "optimists". The vast majority of APUGers have shot Kodak film, some, including myself, like their emulsions a lot, so you shouldn't act surprised that the troubles at Kodak trigger an emotional debate. Given CGWs late contributions, the term "realist" has been devalued here quite a bit lately. You walked into this thread late, probably never bothered to read what has been written about this topic before, think everybody here is happy to eat some insults because our long wait for your superior insights is finally over.
    I attacked no one.

    Although I do see many posts as being absurd, and strange. If this is seen as an attack, then it is an attack on opinions, and not anyone's personage.

    So why do you have a victim's complex?

    I hate to see EK going down, and I also feel "emotional" about it, but I try hard not to let that color my ability to see this from the eyes of a realist; to treat this as a sad fact of our lives.

    I strongly suspect film will be around for a very long time. And the real question is: In what form/flavor/style will be it?
    Coming back home to my film roots. Canon EOS-3 SLR, Canon EOS 1V SLR, 580ex flash, and 5D DSLR shooter. Prime lens only shooter.

  10. #260
    Rudeofus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by SilverGlow View Post
    I dislike both types; the Type I and IIs as mostly over emotional blow hards
    Quote Originally Posted by SilverGlow View Post
    I attacked no one.
    Interesting. Do you greet your friends like that?
    Trying to be the best of whatever I am, even if what I am is no good.



 

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