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  1. #111
    CGW
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    Getting back to APUG... man I love this place, but there is getting to be such a negative funk stinking the place up. With "the sky is falling", anything Kodak, Lomo "hipster chum slick" and whatever else, it seems some supposedly passionate analog photographers are taking delight in wishing for the end of film. I wish they would climb down off their horses, step away from their computers and put as much time and energy to actually use some film as they do pissing on it.

    What? Like Aristophanes, your other fave punching bag, I like my reality straight, no chaser. Silvano, once one of the GTA's busiest pro labs, folded last week. I watched it sink like a stone over the last 5 years. I'm in a city of just over 6 million, the biggest in Ontario, where el cheapo C-41 dev/print has almost vanished, film availability is limited, and my go-to local small pro lab reluctantly dropped all film services a year ago and film scanning recently for proofs and prints. I'm now shopping for a scanner as my first step toward analog survivalism. Frankly, I'm thinking your problem is a lack of reality checks, Tom.

  2. #112
    Stephen Prunier's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Aristophanes View Post
    I have never wished for the end of film, nor do I pizz on it.

    Mr. Freestyle says that film production increased by 20% but Kodak's balance sheet says otherwise. Someone has been feeding him, and the BJP, a load of horsehooey, so this isn't about getting off high horses.

    You cannot have a discussion about analog photography and where Kodak is in that discussion without tackling the issue of real data absent emotion and hyperbole. I try and see where Kodak is from the eyes of a creditor and not a consumer because that is how one makes the business case for analog film.

    I have 9 film cameras and shoot regularly. I carry a Pentax ME Super in my briefcase all the time. I've posted some of my snaps here.
    I'm so glad your not a Doctor! I can see it now. You enter the dark room as your making your rounds. Your patient struggles to lift his head high enough for you to hear him. He manages to say "I think I'm dying" You look at him with a smile and say "I told you so"

    Life is what it is. Some of us, try to enjoy the little things as much as we can. While others get there inner joy, from a life of pissing on everyone else when ever they can. When I don't agree with something I may, or may not, let my feelings known. But if I feel like I'm beating a dead dog, or I have nothing that will change the view of others, I chose to leave it be, and not continue to add my 2 cents. I don't look at it as quitting, but as knowing when to refocus my efforts. It's kind of sad that you feel the continuing need to just post what you do. I read a lot of your posts and I don't feel you have ever made a "positive post" . It's a beautiful thing that we all have the freedom to speak what we feel, but to me, it's taking away the joy of a companies possible survival that is important to me, and others. If we were to all except your views, there would no longer be a need for this site.

    It's not always Black or White. Sometimes we have to except the GRAY area too

  3. #113
    CGW
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    Quote Originally Posted by Stephen Prunier View Post
    I'm so glad your not a Doctor! I can see it now. You enter the dark room as your making your rounds. Your patient struggles to lift his head high enough for you to hear him. He manages to say "I think I'm dying" You look at him with a smile and say "I told you so"

    Life is what it is. Some of us, try to enjoy the little things as much as we can. While others get there inner joy, from a life of pissing on everyone else when ever they can. When I don't agree with something I may, or may not, let my feelings known. But if I feel like I'm beating a dead dog, or I have nothing that will change the view of others, I chose to leave it be, and not continue to add my 2 cents. I don't look at it as quitting, but as knowing when to refocus my efforts. It's kind of sad that you feel the continuing need to just post what you do. I read a lot of your posts and I don't feel you have ever made a "positive post" . It's a beautiful thing that we all have the freedom to speak what we feel, but to me, it's taking away the joy of a companies possible survival that is important to me, and others. If we were to all except your views, there would no longer be a need for this site.

    It's not always Black or White. Sometimes we have to except the GRAY area too
    There's nothing conjectural about Aristophanes' summaries of Kodak's financial reporting. Private opinions are one thing but private facts seem to be the basis of your denial of a serious situation for EK. That you don't like the news or don't get what's behind it changes nothing, your faith in the power of "positive" thinking notwithstanding.
    Last edited by CGW; 02-10-2012 at 10:49 AM. Click to view previous post history.

  4. #114

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    Quote Originally Posted by CGW View Post
    There's nothing conjectural about Aristophanes' summaries of Kodak's financial reporting. Private opinions are one thing but private facts seem to be the basis of your denial of a serious situation for EK. That you don't like the news or don't get what's behind it changes nothing.
    Frankly, there's a lot of conjecture in his analysis and interpretation of those numbers. Hell, he said that Hollywood will be 99:1 digital:film origination in two years. Maybe he's right; who knows? I do know that I've been hearing essentially that same thing for the last 10 years and it hasn't come true, yet.

    Kodak (and their film) are either going to make it, or they won't. The endless bickering of armchair CEO's isn't going to change anything. If you want them to survive, go shoot some film, and convince someone else that they should try film too.

  5. #115
    Thomas Bertilsson's Avatar
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    Some people crave facts and hard data, while others are more driven by emotions, and then there are all people in between that have a component of both.

    I think it's important to be respectful of all types of humans, and not laying down your opinion as some sort of law of being the only correct viewpoint. It's not a competition of who is right and who is wrong. Consider your motives of being on the APUG forum first. Is it for love of darkroom based photography, and associating with other people with a similar passion?

    If it is, then consider the diversity of people and their viewpoints and respect them the same way you want respect in return.

    If not, why are you here?
    "Often moments come looking for us". - Robert Frank

    "Make good art!" - Neil Gaiman

    "...the heart and mind are the true lens of the camera". - Yousuf Karsh

  6. #116
    Toffle's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Thomas Bertilsson View Post
    Some people crave facts and hard data, while others are more driven by emotions, and then there are all people in between that have a component of both.

    I think it's important to be respectful of all types of humans, and not laying down your opinion as some sort of law of being the only correct viewpoint. It's not a competition of who is right and who is wrong. Consider your motives of being on the APUG forum first. Is it for love of darkroom based photography, and associating with other people with a similar passion?

    If it is, then consider the diversity of people and their viewpoints and respect them the same way you want respect in return.

    If not, why are you here?
    What he said.
    Tom, on Point Pelee, Canada

    Ansel Adams had the Zone System... I'm working on the points system. First I points it here, and then I points it there...

    http://tom-overton-images.weebly.com


  7. #117
    Stephen Prunier's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Thomas Bertilsson View Post
    Some people crave facts and hard data, while others are more driven by emotions, and then there are all people in between that have a component of both.

    I think it's important to be respectful of all types of humans, and not laying down your opinion as some sort of law of being the only correct viewpoint. It's not a competition of who is right and who is wrong. Consider your motives of being on the APUG forum first. Is it for love of darkroom based photography, and associating with other people with a similar passion?

    If it is, then consider the diversity of people and their viewpoints and respect them the same way you want respect in return.

    If not, why are you here?
    AWESOME!!!! That's exactly how I feel.

  8. #118
    Aristophanes's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tim Gray View Post
    Frankly, there's a lot of conjecture in his analysis and interpretation of those numbers.
    Again, straight from Kodak, no interpretation:

    "Due to changes in technology and customer preferences, the market for traditional film and paper products and services is in decline. Our success depends in part on our ability to manage the decline of the market for these traditional products by continuing to reduce our cost structure to maintain profitability."

    Total net sales of Kodak FPEG:

    2008 = $ 2,987
    2009 = $ 2,257
    2010 = $ 1,767
    2011 = $ 1,131 (to Q3 only)

    -----

    The ONLY conjecture one could add to that is that Kodak will turn film around or something to that effect. But Kodak is specifically NOT saying that.

    There is nothing in Kodak's literature stating they expect anything BUT secular decline.

    It is not me saying film is still declining, not increasing by some contestable 20%: it is Kodak.

    Jettisoning digicams because Kodak does not make smartphones will not increase the demand for film. If that was the case, Kodak would make that case in their financials. They do not.

    My point is that to save Kodak film products, you need to get film out of Kodak. New shareholders from Ch. 11 will not tolerate the word "decline" in their share value.

    If you don't like the facts, don't read them.

  9. #119
    kb3lms's Avatar
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    Some people crave facts and hard ... If not, why are you here?
    Thank you for putting that out there: much better than I could have said it.

    I think we all understand that Kodak is peering over the edge with at least one foot in the grave. Things suck for them right now and I have to feel for the people that still try to work there. Rochester can't be a very happy place right now. But much of it is the corporate managements own fault. I worked there in the glorius film heydays of the 1980's and it was the same story with Kodak management then - they didn't "get it.". That's one of the big reasons why I moved on many years ago - although, personally, Kodak was VERY good to me. But that kind of largess is well in the past for them and one of the myraid of reasons why they are where they are.

    Just stop banging on it for goodness sake. We get it already.

  10. #120
    kb3lms's Avatar
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    Kodak axing digicams drives up used camera prices!

    Well, not really. But, somebody has got to be interested in film. I just watched a nothing special K-1000 close out on eBay for $62.00. They days of picking them up for $15 sure seem to be over.



 

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