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  1. #521
    Aristophanes's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by CGW View Post
    Nope. Just that it's doubtful that many busy, successful pro photographers in 1995 processed and printed their own film. Isn't that what pro labs and printers did? Not sure why DIY film workflow is suddenly any more advisable now than it was back then for a busy pro. Oh, no pro lab? That is a problem, isn't it?
    The original Ilford went bankrupt when volumes in sales for the entire industry we 10x what they are now.

    There are less pros now.

    Less labs.

    Less distribution channels.

    Less darkroom supply.

    Less credit.

    Less investment.

    Less motion picture stock.

  2. #522

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    <sigh>
    Is anybody here actually involved in photographic practice ie. using a camera, photographing, creating prints...etc.?
    Or is it Kodak, Kodak, Kodak, Kodak ad nauseum of prejudiced, heretic speculation and me-too-ism?
    And why drag Ilford into a discussion about its past? Let bygones by bygones. And get out there and photograph with Kodak, Fuji, Ilford, FOMA...anything else. That is how film will survive, not endless drivel on economics, management and speculation.

  3. #523
    clayne's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Aristophanes View Post
    In abstract terms, you DON'T want Ilford to survive because their B/W monoline market, quite old machines, and history dogged by bankruptcy, is the supplier least able to keep broad market appeal necessary for film to thrive. Film is a mass manufactured industrial-scale product that does not scale well (nor affordably) to niches.
    You have got to be kidding me...
    Stop worrying about grain, resolution, sharpness, and everything else that doesn't have a damn thing to do with substance.

    http://www.flickr.com/kediwah

  4. #524
    David A. Goldfarb's Avatar
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    In New York, where there's a critical mass of media industry, and photography to support the media industry, there are labs to support film and digital--fewer than there used to be, but enough to meet demand certainly. Of course we all know that print and internet need digital files these days, so more and more is digital, but at the high end, if a photographer's vision is best achieved with film, the dip-and-dunk lines are still running, and we've still got 4-hour turnaround on E-6 without a rush order, and if it's the kind of job where it is more expensive to pay the models and assistants to wait on set than to rush the film, rush and double rush are still available, and labs will work with major clients who shoot film to make things work for them.

    I don't know how this plays out in other cities, but I suspect we're just seeing concentration of media photography anyway in major cities like New York, Los Angeles, and Chicago, because that's where the rest of the industry is, and film is a viable commercial medium in those places where there are businesses that can afford the luxury of film. In a high-circulation slick fashion magazine where a full page can cost more than $100,000 just for the ad space, the cost of film and processing and whatever one needs to do to achieve the desired level of "convenience" is insignificant.
    flickr--http://www.flickr.com/photos/davidagoldfarb/
    Photography (not as up to date as the flickr site)--http://www.davidagoldfarb.com/photo
    Academic (Slavic and Comparative Literature)--http://www.davidagoldfarb.com

  5. #525

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    Steel is gradually coming back, Ron. People are starting to figure out that it is way more expensive to ship scrap more than the circumference of the
    earth to get dubious quality and spot outages. But it never was a miscalculation to outsource it. Rather, there was an oligarchy of about twelve very wealthy businessmen who controlled the scrap steel commodity. They made huge sums of money monopolizing its trade and
    by shuffling it back and forth. Stainless is a more specialized material and
    a lot of what is imported is only marginally worthy to be called stainless.
    Economical "stainless" sinks will sometimes rust within half an hour with
    lemon juice or ketchup on it - not even 18-8, let alone 303 or 316. But
    you'd be amazed how fast someone's temper can flare when they realize
    they're sitting on a couple of acres or a few million dollars worth of outsourced rebar that won't pass inspection. The smart-alecs only rule
    the roost for awhile.

  6. #526
    clayne's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by clayne View Post
    You have got to be kidding me...
    Actually. To give benefit of the doubt to Aristophanes, I believe what he meant with the Ilford comment is that one shouldn't want them to survive ONLY because they're the last man standing. That I can agree with.
    Stop worrying about grain, resolution, sharpness, and everything else that doesn't have a damn thing to do with substance.

    http://www.flickr.com/kediwah

  7. #527
    CGW
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    Quote Originally Posted by David A. Goldfarb View Post
    In New York, where there's a critical mass of media industry, and photography to support the media industry, there are labs to support film and digital--fewer than there used to be, but enough to meet demand certainly. Of course we all know that print and internet need digital files these days, so more and more is digital, but at the high end, if a photographer's vision is best achieved with film, the dip-and-dunk lines are still running, and we've still got 4-hour turnaround on E-6 without a rush order, and if it's the kind of job where it is more expensive to pay the models and assistants to wait on set than to rush the film, rush and double rush are still available, and labs will work with major clients who shoot film to make things work for them.

    I don't know how this plays out in other cities, but I suspect we're just seeing concentration of media photography anyway in major cities like New York, Los Angeles, and Chicago, because that's where the rest of the industry is, and film is a viable commercial medium in those places where there are businesses that can afford the luxury of film. In a high-circulation slick fashion magazine where a full page can cost more than $100,000 just for the ad space, the cost of film and processing and whatever one needs to do to achieve the desired level of "convenience" is insignificant.
    Some do this on occasion but far often, they'll use something like the Hasselblad H4D-40.

  8. #528
    clayne's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by DREW WILEY View Post
    Steel is gradually coming back, Ron. People are starting to figure out that it is way more expensive to ship scrap more than the circumference of the
    earth to get dubious quality and spot outages. But it never was a miscalculation to outsource it. Rather, there was an oligarchy of about twelve very wealthy businessmen who controlled the scrap steel commodity. They made huge sums of money monopolizing its trade and
    by shuffling it back and forth. Stainless is a more specialized material and
    a lot of what is imported is only marginally worthy to be called stainless.
    Economical "stainless" sinks will sometimes rust within half an hour with
    lemon juice or ketchup on it - not even 18-8, let alone 303 or 316. But
    you'd be amazed how fast someone's temper can flare when they realize
    they're sitting on a couple of acres or a few million dollars worth of outsourced rebar that won't pass inspection. The smart-alecs only rule
    the roost for awhile.
    I don't doubt for a second that this kind of orchestrated outsourcing is corrupted and controlled by a select group of people - both in the steel industry and elsewhere. Greed rules the roost as usual.

    Any thoughts on corruption or coercion within the inspection side? If they can make that happen full circle then the clients are the ones holding the bag entirely. Happens all the time in 3rd world countries.
    Stop worrying about grain, resolution, sharpness, and everything else that doesn't have a damn thing to do with substance.

    http://www.flickr.com/kediwah

  9. #529
    David A. Goldfarb's Avatar
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    Lots of high-end digital in use to be sure, but someone's out there feeding the processing lines at Duggal, Modernage, and LTI.

    We've also got universities teaching film photography, two freestanding Lomography shops and Lomography products in several other stores around the city, not to mention establishments that are happy to feed the desires of Leica enthusiasts and Rollei fetishists, rental houses with both film and digital equipment, rental darkrooms, studio space, and generally anything one needs to be any kind of photographer one wants to be, if one has the talent, imagination, and financial resources.
    flickr--http://www.flickr.com/photos/davidagoldfarb/
    Photography (not as up to date as the flickr site)--http://www.davidagoldfarb.com/photo
    Academic (Slavic and Comparative Literature)--http://www.davidagoldfarb.com

  10. #530

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    Clayne - I already know way, way more about how things are rigged than is appropriate for a specific discussion like this one. And I'll be glad when
    I can retire from the corporate world (hopefully in the not too distant future) and concentrate on things more important to me. You know the
    saying - what goes around comes around. Jerks usually manage to hang
    themselves with their own rope, but then more jerks pop up who are willing to take the same risk. As far as I'm concerned, American manufacturing delieberately committed suicide.



 

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