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  1. #521
    zsas's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Aristophanes View Post
    They [Ilford] exist on the fringes of a market defined largely by Kodak and Fuji. They are likely majority dependent on home darkroom hobbyists, an industry under considerable duress judging by the free darkrooms on the market...
    Aghast the horror - consumers who are hobbyists - YUK! Were you the same person who missed the rise of Apple's iPhone and you are sitting on a boatload of RIM and MSFT stock because you thought the B2B was the only way? Same with Southwest and JetBlue. The horror of the CONSUMER defining a market that was largely led by businesses mass buying (United, RIM, MSFT, IBM (pre 1992)). The customer is always right.....Ilford appears to be doing well engaging with their customers (ala Simon hanging out here...)
    Andy

  2. #522
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    Which is worse, or are they the same?

    Fifty years ago this morning, I was working at Cape Canaveral on the photography for the launch of John Glenn as the US rushed to catch up with the Soviet Union in the space race. Today we in the US are dependent on Russia for manned launch capabilities. Full circle. And why? Mismanagement and the economy both? I guess so. Lack of desire? I guess so. But then, maybe not!!!!

    Does this sound familiar? I guess so. Kodak is suffering from mismanagement and from the economy, they have a deficit too! Lack of desire? I guess so. But then maybe not!!!

    You see, desire is based on persuasion and that is what is most in common with both scenarios here. People have been persuaded to believe that we don't need a space program, that digital is better, that chemicals and chemistry are bad for us all and etc.

    Now, I have worked hard in both arenas, Kodak R&D and "field" Photography, both with professional photographers and top notch scientists and engineers of all types. And today I see the hopes and dreams and efforts of a lot of friends and myself as well, vanish. Then here, non-experts tell me that they know more about this or that when even the US Government and EK cannot tell us and that is "how do we solve this problem?" and so I see these posts and actually laugh and cry at the same time! This is the very type of persuasion that convinces us that chemistry is bad, digital is good and outsourcing is good.

    If we lose our manned space capability, then we are earthbound to "spaceship earth" and if we lose our ability to make analog films we lose a big segment of the chemistry industry. Not comparable? Oh yes they are! If this keeps going, the US has lost 2 major areas of R&D as well as engineering.

    Today I bought some Stainless Steel for my darkroom. Our oldest grandson and his dad who work for the company tell me that they get a lot of SS from China. Related? I think not. Our steel industry has shrunk considerably. Parts of Pittsburgh look like the area outside of Kodak Park. Empty!

    All of this is interrelated to a core problem. Part of that problem, as noted above, is outsourcing!

    My words to you all "Beware the future!". This includes people from all countries that see this type of sea change in industry. EK is just a small part and their management was just a bit more short sighted and worse than some others.

    PE

  3. #523
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    Quote Originally Posted by CGW View Post
    Nope. Just that it's doubtful that many busy, successful pro photographers in 1995 processed and printed their own film. Isn't that what pro labs and printers did? Not sure why DIY film workflow is suddenly any more advisable now than it was back then for a busy pro. Oh, no pro lab? That is a problem, isn't it?
    The original Ilford went bankrupt when volumes in sales for the entire industry we 10x what they are now.

    There are less pros now.

    Less labs.

    Less distribution channels.

    Less darkroom supply.

    Less credit.

    Less investment.

    Less motion picture stock.

  4. #524
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    <sigh>
    Is anybody here actually involved in photographic practice ie. using a camera, photographing, creating prints...etc.?
    Or is it Kodak, Kodak, Kodak, Kodak ad nauseum of prejudiced, heretic speculation and me-too-ism?
    And why drag Ilford into a discussion about its past? Let bygones by bygones. And get out there and photograph with Kodak, Fuji, Ilford, FOMA...anything else. That is how film will survive, not endless drivel on economics, management and speculation.


  5. #525
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    Quote Originally Posted by Aristophanes View Post
    In abstract terms, you DON'T want Ilford to survive because their B/W monoline market, quite old machines, and history dogged by bankruptcy, is the supplier least able to keep broad market appeal necessary for film to thrive. Film is a mass manufactured industrial-scale product that does not scale well (nor affordably) to niches.
    You have got to be kidding me...
    Stop worrying about grain, resolution, sharpness, and everything else that doesn't have a damn thing to do with substance.

    http://www.flickr.com/kediwah

  6. #526
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    In New York, where there's a critical mass of media industry, and photography to support the media industry, there are labs to support film and digital--fewer than there used to be, but enough to meet demand certainly. Of course we all know that print and internet need digital files these days, so more and more is digital, but at the high end, if a photographer's vision is best achieved with film, the dip-and-dunk lines are still running, and we've still got 4-hour turnaround on E-6 without a rush order, and if it's the kind of job where it is more expensive to pay the models and assistants to wait on set than to rush the film, rush and double rush are still available, and labs will work with major clients who shoot film to make things work for them.

    I don't know how this plays out in other cities, but I suspect we're just seeing concentration of media photography anyway in major cities like New York, Los Angeles, and Chicago, because that's where the rest of the industry is, and film is a viable commercial medium in those places where there are businesses that can afford the luxury of film. In a high-circulation slick fashion magazine where a full page can cost more than $100,000 just for the ad space, the cost of film and processing and whatever one needs to do to achieve the desired level of "convenience" is insignificant.
    flickr--http://www.flickr.com/photos/davidagoldfarb/
    Photography (not as up to date as the flickr site)--http://www.davidagoldfarb.com/photo
    Academic (Slavic and Comparative Literature)--http://www.davidagoldfarb.com

  7. #527

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    Steel is gradually coming back, Ron. People are starting to figure out that it is way more expensive to ship scrap more than the circumference of the
    earth to get dubious quality and spot outages. But it never was a miscalculation to outsource it. Rather, there was an oligarchy of about twelve very wealthy businessmen who controlled the scrap steel commodity. They made huge sums of money monopolizing its trade and
    by shuffling it back and forth. Stainless is a more specialized material and
    a lot of what is imported is only marginally worthy to be called stainless.
    Economical "stainless" sinks will sometimes rust within half an hour with
    lemon juice or ketchup on it - not even 18-8, let alone 303 or 316. But
    you'd be amazed how fast someone's temper can flare when they realize
    they're sitting on a couple of acres or a few million dollars worth of outsourced rebar that won't pass inspection. The smart-alecs only rule
    the roost for awhile.

  8. #528
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    Quote Originally Posted by clayne View Post
    You have got to be kidding me...
    Actually. To give benefit of the doubt to Aristophanes, I believe what he meant with the Ilford comment is that one shouldn't want them to survive ONLY because they're the last man standing. That I can agree with.
    Stop worrying about grain, resolution, sharpness, and everything else that doesn't have a damn thing to do with substance.

    http://www.flickr.com/kediwah

  9. #529
    CGW
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    Quote Originally Posted by David A. Goldfarb View Post
    In New York, where there's a critical mass of media industry, and photography to support the media industry, there are labs to support film and digital--fewer than there used to be, but enough to meet demand certainly. Of course we all know that print and internet need digital files these days, so more and more is digital, but at the high end, if a photographer's vision is best achieved with film, the dip-and-dunk lines are still running, and we've still got 4-hour turnaround on E-6 without a rush order, and if it's the kind of job where it is more expensive to pay the models and assistants to wait on set than to rush the film, rush and double rush are still available, and labs will work with major clients who shoot film to make things work for them.

    I don't know how this plays out in other cities, but I suspect we're just seeing concentration of media photography anyway in major cities like New York, Los Angeles, and Chicago, because that's where the rest of the industry is, and film is a viable commercial medium in those places where there are businesses that can afford the luxury of film. In a high-circulation slick fashion magazine where a full page can cost more than $100,000 just for the ad space, the cost of film and processing and whatever one needs to do to achieve the desired level of "convenience" is insignificant.
    Some do this on occasion but far often, they'll use something like the Hasselblad H4D-40.

  10. #530
    clayne's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by DREW WILEY View Post
    Steel is gradually coming back, Ron. People are starting to figure out that it is way more expensive to ship scrap more than the circumference of the
    earth to get dubious quality and spot outages. But it never was a miscalculation to outsource it. Rather, there was an oligarchy of about twelve very wealthy businessmen who controlled the scrap steel commodity. They made huge sums of money monopolizing its trade and
    by shuffling it back and forth. Stainless is a more specialized material and
    a lot of what is imported is only marginally worthy to be called stainless.
    Economical "stainless" sinks will sometimes rust within half an hour with
    lemon juice or ketchup on it - not even 18-8, let alone 303 or 316. But
    you'd be amazed how fast someone's temper can flare when they realize
    they're sitting on a couple of acres or a few million dollars worth of outsourced rebar that won't pass inspection. The smart-alecs only rule
    the roost for awhile.
    I don't doubt for a second that this kind of orchestrated outsourcing is corrupted and controlled by a select group of people - both in the steel industry and elsewhere. Greed rules the roost as usual.

    Any thoughts on corruption or coercion within the inspection side? If they can make that happen full circle then the clients are the ones holding the bag entirely. Happens all the time in 3rd world countries.
    Stop worrying about grain, resolution, sharpness, and everything else that doesn't have a damn thing to do with substance.

    http://www.flickr.com/kediwah



 

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