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  1. #31
    MaximusM3's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Aristophanes View Post
    They are NOT thinking outside the norm!

    They are simply using what was the norm 30 years ago under the guise of being different.

    Do YOU remember the rooms full of manual typewriters hammering away? The secretarial pools? The "auditory experience" was terrible.

    Those were the norm and, frankly, they were awful.

    It's a quirky article but is romanticizes and makes nostalgic processes that were dreary back then. Writers used to justify their romance with the typewriter even though the hated the damn things and saw them as a necessary evil.

    The economics of this is 100% funded by the fact that the equipment is dirt cheap salvage which consumers, businesses and government now find inefficient to use. Using Super 8 for example, is staggeringly more expensive than other mediums and it is ONLY made possible by the cost differential. The funds to process are only there because of the rock-bottom salvage costs of the cameras. This is why it is artists using disposable income are the ones gravitating to older technology. They are using the detritus of past economic and technological cycles can calling it an expressive medium whereas once it was blood and guts, money-making enterprise. Let's not put on rose coloured glasses. If she makes a terrific film, excellent. That's what counts. Making the process itself an artistic statement is a personal choice, one made possible by prior economic subsidy.

    And this quote from the article makes me laugh:

    "In a sense, the digital world can only deal with things that can be quantified, says Milne, 38, who has an engineering background. "So things like experience, even spirituality and religion -- all that stuff that we can't push into a rational, logical framework, sort of drops off the map."

    You have got to be kidding me.

    When personal computers came out they were seen as a means of humanizing ("Hello. Welcome to Macintosh") what for most was a deeply dehumanizing experience, and that was white collar analog information management. People went blind loading fonts into prepress machines. Hard hammering typewriters contributed to deafness. Computers were seen as liberating. Less so in hindsight, but that takes nothing away from the sheer drudgery beforehand.

    And an engineer should know that analog is just as much about quantification as digital.

    I have no problem with using analog devices in "new and creative ways", but to assert nonsense about some sort of spiritual connection is absurd. It was never that way in the past. In fact, corporate managers were the ones who tried to "liberate" the workplace in such ways against the average person who used the equipment. The guy in the corner suite dictated to a typist.

    It's like people romanticizing haystacks but they would never get in a field themselves and pitchfork one into being to foster a greater connection to the land. It's always better when someone else, preferably in another country or our hard working farming ancestors, had to do the really hard work.

    These hipsters have not only short memories, but they are creating their own media-infused ones that are fundamentally inaccurate compared to the historical record. There's also no shortage of lo-fi elitism. Instead of just appreciating the image, we get this:

    "With film, "there's a lot more communication between photographer and subject," he says. "I find it can be more of a collaboration."

    Prove it by looking at the image. Prove it. Because the next day, no one will be able to tell. Nor will they in 10 or 100 years. Therefore it's not about the art, it's about the artist's self-justification. Each to their own, but at least have the courage to call it what it is.

    So....you mean the good old days weren't so good after all? Hey, in 50 years, these will be the good old days and someone will be writing up how wonderful it was to carry an iPhone in bed, while now it is permanently up our asses and transmitting directly into our brains. Big hug!

  2. #32
    kb3lms's Avatar
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    "In a sense, the digital world can only deal with things that can be quantified, says Milne, 38, who has an engineering background. "So things like experience, even spirituality and religion -- all that stuff that we can't push into a rational, logical framework, sort of drops off the map."
    As an engineer who has to use a computer incessantly, all day long, I get this. What he says is 100% right on the money.

  3. #33

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    I just took a Fuji Instax of a group of anti-bullying students (in pink shirts) and gave them the print right there and then.

    Gotta love analog.

  4. #34
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    Analog is superior to digital fundamentally because digital aways introduce some data loss by virtue of sampling. Analog is more fun than digital now because right now analog is not the norm. The norm always gets granted and thus we tend to get bored with it. When analog was the norm, it was not inferior is was just taken for granted. Now is the perfect time to enjoy analog and get the most fun and pleasure out of it. Especially if we can finally have access to top notch equipment for so little and then have wonderful results we could have dreamt about back in the day. So anyway you look at it, analog is cheaper, more fun, and more pleasurable than digital right now. Maybe in 10 or 20 years digital will be start giving as much fun but analog won't be anything less than it is now.

  5. #35
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lionel1972 View Post
    Analog is superior to digital fundamentally because digital aways introduce some data loss by virtue of sampling. Analog is more fun than digital now because right now analog is not the norm. The norm always gets granted and thus we tend to get bored with it. When analog was the norm, it was not inferior is was just taken for granted. Now is the perfect time to enjoy analog and get the most fun and pleasure out of it. Especially if we can finally have access to top notch equipment for so little and then have wonderful results we could have dreamt about back in the day. So anyway you look at it, analog is cheaper, more fun, and more pleasurable than digital right now. Maybe in 10 or 20 years digital will be start giving as much fun but analog won't be anything less than it is now.
    That is fundamentally untrue.

    There is data loss in analog: visual audio, etc. This is clearly explained in the article about the lo-fi hiss on albums.

    The losses in digital are by economic choice, as in data compression as network capable files are preferred over pure fidelity files. There is no limit to either as they are both just organizations of molecules. NASA's phenomenal photos from space are amalgamations of digital sensors across spectrums. We are finding new planets by the thousands because of digital sensors and their capacity that far exceeds what analog could ever do. The only limitation is the original sensing material. In this respect, sampling is a feature, not a bug.

    Yes, analog is fun. What is irksome is if someone makes a crappy photo or film and people say it is crappy. But then the artists says to was made on 10 yer-old expired Tri-x, people swoon because of the process being some artificial purity that no sane filmmaker back in the day would ever do. Worship of the process is replacing real appreciation of the aesthetic, fulling a cult of the artist and not real critiques of their body of work. Making it precious to satisfy the artist's need for self-fulfilment (I can't afford a Red one) takes the fun right out of it.

    Is a novel on a typewriter better than one crafted on a word processor? Can you tell the difference? How does Homer feel about that?

    Do you know what is making a comeback? The abacus. That's cool. Would you trust the structural support of an F1 car to a formula derived on an abacus? Uh...no.

  6. #36
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    I didn't say that analog doesn't have any limitation and doesn't distort reality in its own way. As far as I know, on a molecular level, digital is still far behind what analog capture devices are capable of recording (Bayer filter for example). Weither you like it or not, analog is still much easier and more pleasant for the human brain to assimilate (think about how fatiguiing mp3 recordings are compared to hi-fi tube amp stuff). Even when you don't notice the difference, your physical body doesn't react the same to these different types of simulii. Proof is that in order to "improve" digital imagery, they now tend to introduce curves and grain to make it more pleasant to look at than the harsh binarity and linearity of digital images.

  7. #37

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    Some people appear happy creating art using older ways, perhaps they find it easier to articulate themselves with images rather than words. I won't judge a photographer by his sentences.

    Art is not engineering, a photo created on film may be valid, a car designed on an abacus is not.

    Some people write out their work by hand on paper and then pay for someone to type it onto a computer, that's how they work. Maybe others use type writers, perhaps staring at a screen kills their creativity, who knows, they work out what's best for them and it works for them. Writers are probably more articulate about this than photographers or engineers, at least I would hope so.

    A spiritual connection to a process can indeed seem absurd. Especially to a rationalist. However, one of the great things about people is that they're all different and some really might do this spiritual thing - I don't know, but I do know that not everyone is like me.

    My wife plays piano, a friend composes tunes using software. They both get a kick out of what they do but neither can understand the other's valorising of their machines. My wife in convinced that only a 'real' piano is a piano -she won't record her playing and edit it with software. My friend loves the potential of his computer and uploads screen grabs of his programs to facebook. I've yet to meet a sculptor who employs CAD/CAM.

    Valorisation is every bit as modern as it is nostalgic.
    Steve.

  8. #38
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    "Ultimately it comes down to taste. It comes down to trying to expose yourself to the best things that humans have done and then try to bring those things in to what you're doing."

    Spoken by he last guy in America who actually knew what the #@&* he was doing.

  9. #39
    Aristophanes's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by MaximusM3 View Post
    So....you mean the good old days weren't so good after all? Hey, in 50 years, these will be the good old days and someone will be writing up how wonderful it was to carry an iPhone in bed, while now it is permanently up our asses and transmitting directly into our brains. Big hug!
    Hipsters make a virtue of technology and experiences they themselves need were a part of. It can be really interesting to see a generation explore history thoughtfully, but it can come across as self-indulgent shopping through someone else's history instead of confronting your own reality.

    You can do what you want with your iPhone

    I'm sure some sleep with their Leica's. On APUG there's sometimes a weird Olympus love-in going on.

  10. #40
    Aristophanes's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lionel1972 View Post
    I didn't say that analog doesn't have any limitation and doesn't distort reality in its own way. As far as I know, on a molecular level, digital is still far behind what analog capture devices are capable of recording (Bayer filter for example). Weither you like it or not, analog is still much easier and more pleasant for the human brain to assimilate (think about how fatiguiing mp3 recordings are compared to hi-fi tube amp stuff). Even when you don't notice the difference, your physical body doesn't react the same to these different types of simulii. Proof is that in order to "improve" digital imagery, they now tend to introduce curves and grain to make it more pleasant to look at than the harsh binarity and linearity of digital images.
    Lots of digital cameras have no Bayer filter. Digital is rapidly catching up to analog's theoretical limitations and will pass soon enough. In fact, in scientific and turnkey instrumentation, it already has by substantial margins.

    That does not mean analog is not fun. Mixing chemicals is fun. Photoshop is not.

    Show the empirical proof relating to digital audio "fatigue". I have heard many lousy CD's that's for sure, including horrendous audio engineering in the race for "loud". I've also heard the same on vinyl, which has its own serious weaknesses in fidelity. I've heard terrible sound at live performances, including unplugged ones!

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