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  1. #61
    CGW
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    Quote Originally Posted by wblynch View Post
    I think that has to be business double speak.

    Certainly they had to be able to make smaller batches and runs for research and development.

    And certainly, the production runs had to meet the standards set by the pilot runs.

    I have worked inside enough huge American corporations (and seen and heard plenty of confidential information) to know they lie a lot. (well, mostly lie)

    The problem is once they scale up they can never imagine scaling down.
    Isn't it obvious by now this just won't work? Even if Kodak made an attempt, the scaled-down capacity would still likely prove uneconomical--technical issues aside. Demand is still falling. How can you right-size production with no certainty about demand? That's the problem--not management probity. Saying what ever you like about Kodak's rat bastard management won't alter the collapse of demand for film.

  2. #62

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    I look for solutions, not capitulation.
    - Bill Lynch

  3. #63
    CGW
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    Quote Originally Posted by wblynch View Post
    I look for solutions, not capitulation.
    I guess you're still looking since all you've done is call (Kodak's) management inept liars. That's a solution?

    Have a look at EK's Q1 results.

  4. #64

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    How one can live their life on a permanent downer is confusing to me. But I choose to live in sunlight.

    If EK won't do it, someone else will. There are optimists in the world. Maybe all they need is big yellow to roll over and get out of the way.

    The concept that profits can not be made on a smaller scale will be proven wrong by boutique makers.
    - Bill Lynch

  5. #65
    CGW
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    Quote Originally Posted by wblynch View Post
    How one can live their life on a permanent downer is confusing to me. But I choose to live in sunlight.

    If EK won't do it, someone else will. There are optimists in the world. Maybe all they need is big yellow to roll over and get out of the way.

    The concept that profits can not be made on a smaller scale will be proven wrong by boutique makers.
    Ilford is about as "boutique" as it gets, scale-wise. EK isn't Ilford. Optimism=wishful thinking in this case. The film market is slipping away. E6 is dead. C-41 materials will suffer badly if/when MP sales fall further. Ask Photo Engineer about the likelihood of "boutique makers" giving you what you want at a price you'd be willing to pay. Magical thinking isn't a solution.

    Look at the EK Q1 results.

  6. #66
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    Quote Originally Posted by wblynch View Post
    If EK won't do it, someone else will. There are optimists in the world. Maybe all they need is big yellow to roll over and get out of the way.

    The concept that profits can not be made on a smaller scale will be proven wrong by boutique makers.
    Kodak already rolled over and died on E6. We'll never see Kodak E6 again. What will happen if Fuji rolls over and dies, too? Will Rollei Digibase (rebranded aerial film) still be manufactured? I have no idea, Rollei film might be cut from existing master rolls, with no new stock being made. I only know that the current "boutique" manufacturer is Rollei, and the "big dog" is Fuji, and the "dead dog" is Kodak.

  7. #67

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    Quote Originally Posted by CGW View Post
    Given a population of 24 million I'd expect that. Friends at Fudan tell me anyone with sufficient cash tends to throw it at digital, much like N. America, but there's a large rear guard. They think prices are high on used film gear and tell me it doesn't move that quickly. What's your take?
    I think all of the above is true. Digital is by far the most common camera here in China. The film stores and used analogue stores have nowhere near the traffic that the digital ones do. Yet they are still there, with folks making their living off selling film cameras. So there must be enough traffic to support them. The sheer variety of film cameras one can buy here is amazing. Probably any model you can think of.

    I'm still outside this game, trying to decide how or if to enter. I grew up shooting film and would like to do so again, with a very nice film camera, not something cheap. I constantly get close to buying a Fuji GF670 but always back away because it is not clear film (or more likely processing) will be available for the life of this camera. I wish I had a crystal ball.......

  8. #68
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    Quote Originally Posted by RattyMouse View Post
    I'm still outside this game, trying to decide how or if to enter. I grew up shooting film and would like to do so again, with a very nice film camera, not something cheap. I constantly get close to buying a Fuji GF670 but always back away because it is not clear film (or more likely processing) will be available for the life of this camera. I wish I had a crystal ball.......
    The life of that camera is going to be much longer than yours, or mine. Life is short. So, if you want to use film, my humble and respectful advice is just buy the camera, use film. By using it, you'll increase a tiny bit the probability that film survives. And when film is out of the woods, you'll be able to say "I was there, I was one of those who saved film for future generations" (put some emphasis ).

    By not using it, you are just hoping somebody else will keep film alive for you. And if and when film is clearly out of the woods and soundly rebounding, that Fuji GF670 will become much more expensive, film will be available, but the camera will be out of reach

    So, do the right thing! Just do it!

    PS I think that even CGW will agree that black & white film will be there for decades. It's colour which is at risk.
    Last edited by Diapositivo; 05-15-2012 at 06:05 PM. Click to view previous post history.
    Fabrizio Ruggeri fine art photography site: http://fabrizio-ruggeri.artistwebsites.com
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  9. #69
    Diapositivo's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by wblynch View Post
    I think that has to be business double speak.

    Certainly they had to be able to make smaller batches and runs for research and development.
    I agree, but pilot batches only aim at showing the actual working of the product, without being constrained by cost or availability. A pilot batch can be more expensive but the final production could be less expensive.

    It might be that certain products are easily available in small batches but not in large batches (because factories currently producing them don't supply huge quantities and Kodak doesn't want to start production themselves, let's say), and that other products are available in large quantities and cost less, so that the kind of chemical products used is decided having consideration for the productive scale.

    I'm thinking maybe it's a bit like using aluminium or fiberglass: fiberglass is easier in the laboratory, but not easy to manufacture in large batches, whereas aluminium or steel is more complicated in the laboratory, but it's easier to produce in mass scale.
    Fabrizio Ruggeri fine art photography site: http://fabrizio-ruggeri.artistwebsites.com
    Stock images at Imagebroker: http://www.imagebroker.com/#/search/ib_fbr

  10. #70

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    Quote Originally Posted by Diapositivo View Post
    The life of that camera is going to be much longer than yours, or mine. Life is short. So, if you want to use film, my humble and respectful advice is just buy the camera, use film. By using it, you'll increase a tiny bit the probability that film survives. And when film is out of the woods, you'll be able to say "I was there, I was one of those who saved film for future generations" (put some emphasis ).

    By not using it, you are just hoping somebody else will keep film alive for you. And if and when film is clearly out of the woods and soundly rebounding, that Fuji GF670 will become much more expensive, film will be available, but the camera will be out of reach

    So, do the right thing! Just do it!

    PS I think that even CGW will agree that black & white film will be there for decades. It's colour which is at risk.
    You are right of course. I am primarily a color shooter so the fact that B & W will be around for the long haul is less than satisfactory a reason for me.

    My big fear is being forced to accept digital (ink jet) prints from my negatives. I have NO experience in what those will look like compared to analogue and fear that I will not be happy with that. Your take?



 

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