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  1. #61

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    How one can live their life on a permanent downer is confusing to me. But I choose to live in sunlight.

    If EK won't do it, someone else will. There are optimists in the world. Maybe all they need is big yellow to roll over and get out of the way.

    The concept that profits can not be made on a smaller scale will be proven wrong by boutique makers.
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  2. #62
    CGW
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    Quote Originally Posted by wblynch View Post
    How one can live their life on a permanent downer is confusing to me. But I choose to live in sunlight.

    If EK won't do it, someone else will. There are optimists in the world. Maybe all they need is big yellow to roll over and get out of the way.

    The concept that profits can not be made on a smaller scale will be proven wrong by boutique makers.
    Ilford is about as "boutique" as it gets, scale-wise. EK isn't Ilford. Optimism=wishful thinking in this case. The film market is slipping away. E6 is dead. C-41 materials will suffer badly if/when MP sales fall further. Ask Photo Engineer about the likelihood of "boutique makers" giving you what you want at a price you'd be willing to pay. Magical thinking isn't a solution.

    Look at the EK Q1 results.

  3. #63
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    Quote Originally Posted by wblynch View Post
    If EK won't do it, someone else will. There are optimists in the world. Maybe all they need is big yellow to roll over and get out of the way.

    The concept that profits can not be made on a smaller scale will be proven wrong by boutique makers.
    Kodak already rolled over and died on E6. We'll never see Kodak E6 again. What will happen if Fuji rolls over and dies, too? Will Rollei Digibase (rebranded aerial film) still be manufactured? I have no idea, Rollei film might be cut from existing master rolls, with no new stock being made. I only know that the current "boutique" manufacturer is Rollei, and the "big dog" is Fuji, and the "dead dog" is Kodak.

  4. #64
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    Quote Originally Posted by RattyMouse View Post
    I'm still outside this game, trying to decide how or if to enter. I grew up shooting film and would like to do so again, with a very nice film camera, not something cheap. I constantly get close to buying a Fuji GF670 but always back away because it is not clear film (or more likely processing) will be available for the life of this camera. I wish I had a crystal ball.......
    The life of that camera is going to be much longer than yours, or mine. Life is short. So, if you want to use film, my humble and respectful advice is just buy the camera, use film. By using it, you'll increase a tiny bit the probability that film survives. And when film is out of the woods, you'll be able to say "I was there, I was one of those who saved film for future generations" (put some emphasis ).

    By not using it, you are just hoping somebody else will keep film alive for you. And if and when film is clearly out of the woods and soundly rebounding, that Fuji GF670 will become much more expensive, film will be available, but the camera will be out of reach

    So, do the right thing! Just do it!

    PS I think that even CGW will agree that black & white film will be there for decades. It's colour which is at risk.
    Last edited by Diapositivo; 05-15-2012 at 05:05 PM. Click to view previous post history.
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  5. #65
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    Quote Originally Posted by wblynch View Post
    I think that has to be business double speak.

    Certainly they had to be able to make smaller batches and runs for research and development.
    I agree, but pilot batches only aim at showing the actual working of the product, without being constrained by cost or availability. A pilot batch can be more expensive but the final production could be less expensive.

    It might be that certain products are easily available in small batches but not in large batches (because factories currently producing them don't supply huge quantities and Kodak doesn't want to start production themselves, let's say), and that other products are available in large quantities and cost less, so that the kind of chemical products used is decided having consideration for the productive scale.

    I'm thinking maybe it's a bit like using aluminium or fiberglass: fiberglass is easier in the laboratory, but not easy to manufacture in large batches, whereas aluminium or steel is more complicated in the laboratory, but it's easier to produce in mass scale.
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  6. #66

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    True, but consider for discussion... Economic models show a cost (say per roll of 25 cents). Using the large scale system they're used to, they can figure the 25 cents base plus advertising (ha) distribution, fixed plant costs, labor costs, money costs, profit, shareholder equity, amortized write offs and all those factors to come up with a retail price and predicted volume. (say $3.50)

    Now, change the formula so the base cost of the film is no longer 25 cents but 75 cents. For you and I it makes sense to raise the retail price to $4.25 and all is well.

    But in their mind it needs to go to $10.50 to keep their spreadsheets going and now it's out of reason.


    Quote Originally Posted by Diapositivo View Post
    I agree, but pilot batches only aim at showing the actual working of the product, without being constrained by cost or availability. A pilot batch can be more expensive but the final production could be less expensive.

    It might be that certain products are easily available in small batches but not in large batches (because factories currently producing them don't supply huge quantities and Kodak doesn't want to start production themselves, let's say), and that other products are available in large quantities and cost less, so that the kind of chemical products used is decided having consideration for the productive scale.
    - Bill Lynch

  7. #67
    CGW
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    Quote Originally Posted by RattyMouse View Post
    I think all of the above is true. Digital is by far the most common camera here in China. The film stores and used analogue stores have nowhere near the traffic that the digital ones do. Yet they are still there, with folks making their living off selling film cameras. So there must be enough traffic to support them. The sheer variety of film cameras one can buy here is amazing. Probably any model you can think of.

    I'm still outside this game, trying to decide how or if to enter. I grew up shooting film and would like to do so again, with a very nice film camera, not something cheap. I constantly get close to buying a Fuji GF670 but always back away because it is not clear film (or more likely processing) will be available for the life of this camera. I wish I had a crystal ball.......
    Get the Fuji. Get something MF and start shooting, OK? I went on a buying spree when prices were down in late 07 and built kits I liked in 645/6x6/6x7 over the next 2-3 years for very little $. Would I buy more now? No. Would I start shooting MF now? Yes. Friends and the guanxi web will direct you to good processing and printing. Hybrid is where most of us are going--like it or not. My great little local pro lab finally stopped scanning early this year, so I'm piling up negs and trans while I figure out scanning options. Not all inkjet is crap. DIY b&w isn't punishing(even saw an AP dev tank in your store pix). Get off the fence and try it. Make the best of the film situation in Shanghai and shoot Shanghai. Drag a camera to Suzhou--a friend got great stuff with his Shen Hao 4x5 there last month.

    My take, especially with film? Drink up. Miss less and shoot all you can.

  8. #68
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    Quote Originally Posted by RattyMouse View Post
    Probably more than in most places. Shanghai has a very active used camera market. And a very active film users group.

    I walk by stores that have dozens of Contax G2's lined up. Dozens of Contax film SLR's and lenses. Hundreds of Canon's, Nikon's, folders, Rollie's, Seagulls, you name it, it can be bought here. The main camera mall here has several floors of used gear with a huge amount of that analogue equipment.

    How's this for a sight for this group?

    Attachment 51036
    Film is alive and well here in Beijing. This past weekend I was shooting large format at the Ancient Observatory, a must see little attraction for tourists, because almost no one goes there (it is an oasis of calm in a massive city). As I was setting up a shot, a Chinese tourist wandered by. Hanging around his neck was an Olympus 35RD!

    He got a big thumbs up from me!

  9. #69
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    Quote Originally Posted by RattyMouse View Post
    My big fear is being forced to accept digital (ink jet) prints from my negatives. I have NO experience in what those will look like compared to analogue and fear that I will not be happy with that. Your take?
    The general consensus in the forum, supported by the opinion of competent people like PE, is that for various reasons colour negatives are much less at risk than slide film. Black & White is totally out of extinction risk, colour negative is closely observed, slide film is on the Appendix I of CITES

    Regarding printing, you will always be able to print colour negatives to chemical papers using laboratories which use machines like the Durst Lambda. Those machines scan the negative, obtain a digital image which they use to project coloured light on the photographic paper (just like an enlarger would do) which is then developed chemically. It's a hybrid process which belong to this forum as most participants just ignore that when they bring their negative film to be developed and printed the most likely occurrence is that the printing is hybrid.

    Actually I suspect a Durst Lambda is able to print a positive with just the same ease as it prints a negative. Those machines are not produced any more but should certainly remain working for many years. Besides, production can resume one day. It's like with film cameras: new ones are scarcely produced now because the second-hand market satisfies the demand.

    I think you can buy that GF670 with high confidence that you will be able to use it with black & white and with colour negatives and have them printed on chemical papers for many years to come.
    Fabrizio Ruggeri fine art photography site: http://fabrizio-ruggeri.artistwebsites.com
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  10. #70

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    Quote Originally Posted by wblynch View Post
    True, but consider for discussion... Economic models show a cost (say per roll of 25 cents). Using the large scale system they're used to, they can figure the 25 cents base plus advertising (ha) distribution, fixed plant costs, labor costs, money costs, profit, shareholder equity, amortized write offs and all those factors to come up with a retail price and predicted volume. (say $3.50)

    Now, change the formula so the base cost of the film is no longer 25 cents but 75 cents. For you and I it makes sense to raise the retail price to $4.25 and all is well.

    But in their mind it needs to go to $10.50 to keep their spreadsheets going and now it's out of reason.
    Well here a roll cost you 7$ now, we still buy. We will still buy at 10$.



 

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