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  1. #121
    lxdude's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by railwayman3 View Post
    But maybe now is the time to start getting used to the exceptional products made by the other, last few. manufacturers...support them and maybe there will be a better chance of a few more years....
    I would not be surprised if the other manufacturers want Kodak film to survive. Kodak film disappearing makes the entire industry look bad.
    I do use a digital device in my photographic pursuits when necessary.
    When someone rags on me for using film, I use a middle digit, upraised.

  2. #122

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    Quote Originally Posted by lxdude View Post
    I would not be surprised if the other manufacturers want Kodak film to survive. Kodak film disappearing makes the entire industry look bad.

    This is nonsense.
    They're all in it for the money, not for the image of the industry. If Kodak is gone, their cake suddenly gets bigger. And they'll be happier.

  3. #123

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    Quote Originally Posted by NB23 View Post
    This is nonsense.
    They're all in it for the money, not for the image of the industry. If Kodak is gone, their cake suddenly gets bigger. And they'll be happier.
    But we do need industry leaders and innovators who influence progression?

  4. #124
    ChristopherCoy's Avatar
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    For those of you who have always shot film, this may be something that you have experienced before. But for those of us whose only just returned to film in the recent years, this is a big blow. Should I give up the analog dream of creativity? Sell my film gear while it's truly still worth barely something? Quit investing in my analog processing equipment? Polaroid is long gone, Fuji is consistently discontinuing one film or another, and now Kodak is selling. KODAK. Everyone says their is so many other choices, but is there really? How long will they be around? I just feel like the wind has just been taken out of my sails.

  5. #125
    Ian Grant's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by cdkrenzer View Post
    Fabrizio - the motion picture business is NOT part of the sale. And you have the description of the commercial film business correct - those are the heavy duty industrial type usages of film. There was some confusion elsewhere about what constituted "commercial film."
    If the motion picture division isn't sold with the rest of the coating division then both are doomed to failure, it just doesn't make any sense except perhaps to Perez.

    The research for one impacts the other. who on earth would want the half of the whole cake.

    Ian

  6. #126

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    Quote Originally Posted by cdkrenzer View Post
    All I would ask is that you realize that within Kodak, there is a talented, passionate group of people who have worked hard to keep the film business moving forward.
    Good morning Colleen,

    So far that hazmat suit is treating you well on here, good for you for braving the emotions to greet those who can keep it at bay.

    I want to thank you for saying what needs to be said ( above ) in terms of the group of people who work hard to keep the film biz moving forward despite the battle going on much further up the corporate ladder, I am not sure most people realize just how human an element this is, so I have posted a photo of the group who I toured Building 38 with back in 2009……look at the faces, Scott Sheppard is in there, Josh Root from Photo.net, Stephen Schaub, Scott Disabato, Audrey Jonckheer, Garret Kokx, etc….

    Attachment 55960

    No matter what happens, a lot of the people in this photo have had just as much hope to keep giving you great films as you have hoped to keep buying them, this has not changed, they are as sad as you are that we are all in this boat at this point.

    And there are some hurdles to overcome. Colleen has stated on the RFF thread that Kodak is also selling the chemistry sector as part of the sale. As it has been pointed out on here, Champion Chemical makes our Kodak soup and is owed a lot of money by EK so not knowing the details, I can only speculate as to whether the buyer of the film group also has to buy the chemistry operation and gets the debt with it?

    So we keep going round and round on the fact that both still and motion stocks are made in Building 38 so how can they separate them. Well, who is to say that Kodak is not selling the entirety of both lines to the still film buyer only to lease the line back when needing to make motion stock? And who is to say that a big, big player in the motion picture industry is not going to buy the stills division and then make, sell and distribute both motion and still stock…some of them are owed some 26 million in rebates after all….all speculation, could be as close to a hit as throwing a stone at pluto from a hurricane…

    But, what we do have is an opportunity here and I am frankly surprised that no one has hit upon it yet. Imagine for a moment that we are all children in a orphanage. We are sad that no one seems to want to take care of us, we feel left behind, outcast, etc. But we hear that a bunch of potentially wonderful and willing parents are coming to find a child in need to take care of and help bloom into a well rounded adult, to get the care they deserve. Would it not make sense to then put on our best behaviors, be our best for the betterment of of our own self image and the image these parents see?

    That is what we have in front of us right now, we need to put the numbers aside and show the potential new owners of Kodak film that we are going to continue to support the product and not only make great photos with it, but meet these people more than half way with great dialogue in how to help market film, how to show that it really matters in the year 2012. The people that are currently involved in marketing Kodak film have had their hands fiscally tied for years, that grip has only gotten tighter. So with this new chapter, that will obviously free up, it has to. So why not meet this possibility half way with giving them a helping hand. Don't wait for the new owners to bathe you in new slick ads and TV commercials, start thinking of how to be a stake holder in Kodak film in going forward.

    This is not a mainstream thing we are talking here, this is film and that is niche, we have to think in terms of that from here on out in order for it to thrive under new ownership. This could turn out better than our wildest dreams, but we have to try to meet it all at least half way.
    Last edited by PKM-25; 08-24-2012 at 01:04 PM. Click to view previous post history.
    "I'm the freak that shoots film. God bless the freaks!" ~ Mainecoonmaniac ~

  7. #127
    lxdude's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by NB23 View Post
    This is nonsense.
    They're all in it for the money, not for the image of the industry. If Kodak is gone, their cake suddenly gets bigger. And they'll be happier.
    Not nonsense. It's not about the "image of the industry". It's about the perception of the industry.

    Nonetheless, "image" and "perception" both affect sales.

    Their cake does not get bigger. Their share of the cake gets bigger, but the cake gets smaller.
    Last edited by lxdude; 08-24-2012 at 01:57 PM. Click to view previous post history.
    I do use a digital device in my photographic pursuits when necessary.
    When someone rags on me for using film, I use a middle digit, upraised.

  8. #128
    Thomas Bertilsson's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by NB23 View Post
    This is nonsense.
    They're all in it for the money, not for the image of the industry. If Kodak is gone, their cake suddenly gets bigger. And they'll be happier.
    I thought you said you were out of this thread.

    You make no sense. If Kodak cannot find a suitable buyer for their film division the supply chain for the entire industry will be compromised. Like it or not.

    Plus, what business is NOT in it for the money? Seriously.
    "Often moments come looking for us". - Robert Frank

    "Make good art!" - Neil Gaiman

    "...the heart and mind are the true lens of the camera". - Yousuf Karsh

  9. #129
    Diapositivo's Avatar
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    The picture gets interestingly complicated.

    We in the forum presume that Kodak basically coats film on one machine. The vast majority of film coated is motion picture film. We also presume, as per Photo Engineer indication and experience, that patents and "recipes" are not easily exported outside of a production plant and to some different production staff. So if Ektar, Portra etc. are going to survive, they are going to be coated on the same machine as motion picture film. We also know, IIRC, that the productive scale of the remaining coating machine at Kodak is big and is not easily down-sizeable, and its economic operation is justified by the great volumes of coating generated by the motion picture business. Kodak doesn't have any more the small coating machines that can be economically operated with the small volumes of production that still film requires.

    Kodak is spinning out its still film but not its motion picture film.

    That implies a scenario when some buyer, let's call him "NewKodak" would buy the patents and trademarks of still films. He would then outsource production to "OldKodak" under certain constraints regarding production quality, terms of delivery etc.

    NewKodak would only be in charge of the "business" side: risking capital, determining production level, product mix, finding distributors, managing client relations, PR, hopefully making profit out of it. OldKodak would continue its business from the production side (which they do well and which basically "only" they can do on that plant) and would get rid of all the commercial side where they made... ahem... a suboptimal performance.

    The big problem in this solution is that it is the production volume of the motion picture film that is taking the coating business alive, given the productive scale of Kodak coating machine. NewKodak would be left in the cold and dark if, in a few years, OldKodak decided that motion picture is not any more in their plans.

    If this "big problem" was overcome or was not existent (maybe because the coating machine can actually work for small volumes or because Kodak can get hold, in case, of a smaller coating machine and put it into production with the present products) that could, in my opinion of this immediate moment, make the rose of potential buyers much larger than one would have expected.

    The buyer could be anybody with some capital to risk in this endeavour and a good experience and know-how in consumer staple distribution. It could be anybody from Gillette to Procter&Gamble to 3M*, to say some names at random. There would be no need to find a buyer with some form of coating activity (such as a solar panel producer) or with a "technical partner" with coating experience.

    Just my mumbling
    Fabrizio

    * I know 3M exited the production side of film many years ago when they sold Ferrania. But now it would be only about managing the distribution side of the business.
    Last edited by Diapositivo; 08-24-2012 at 01:13 PM. Click to view previous post history.
    Fabrizio Ruggeri fine art photography site: http://fabrizio-ruggeri.artistwebsites.com
    Stock images at Imagebroker: http://www.imagebroker.com/#/search/ib_fbr

  10. #130
    Photo Engineer's Avatar
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    Ahh, the separation!!!

    Kodak sold its medical products division to Onyx, who have changed their names since the. Anyhow, they own what was once Kodak Colorado and coat the products there on the 72" machine. Now, Kodak needs that facility to coat wide color paper so they lease time on those machines and the crews live happily side by side in the same facility but under different management. This is probably what is envisioned at EK Rochester.

    Also, Kodak does have a chemical division that makes specialty chemicals for color film and paper. This includes couplers, sensitizing dyes and other rare beasts. Previous chemicals included Kodachrome couplers and color developers. But, IDK if they mean that division in the statements referred to here.

    PE



 

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