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  1. #421
    Photo Engineer's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by RattyMouse View Post
    Very interesting. I guess I failed to really appreciate how thin the coatings are. Even with miles long rolls, the batch sizes are not particularly large.
    A coating can be thinner than a human hair.

    See attached.

    PE
    Attached Thumbnails Attached Thumbnails Color film structure.jpg   cross section.jpg   cross section and hair.jpg  

  2. #422
    Ken Nadvornick's Avatar
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    Wow. I've never seen a scale comparison like that third photo. That's beyond amazing!

    Ken
    "They are the proof that something was there and no longer is. Like a stain. And the stillness of them is boggling. You can turn away but when you come back they’ll still be there looking at you."

    — Diane Arbus, March 15, 1971, in response to a request for a brief statement about photographs

  3. #423

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    Fantastic info PE, really great! What did you guys at Kodak think when Fujifilm came out with their 4th color layer? Was that a real development or just marketing BS?

  4. #424
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    The 4th layer was a bit of both.

    It was good under fluorescent lighting, but didn't do much more and made the coating more difficult It did cause some process problems IIRC. Not sure about that.

    I forgot to mention that the images are courtesy of my friend Bruce Kahn, former professor at RIT. He gave me a lot of help, images and formulas for my book.

    PE

  5. #425
    Kevin Kehler's Avatar
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    PE, could the research coating machines be used to create smaller batches or are they just not capable of that? I am assuming they are a miniature version of the large machine. If someone was to buy one, could they make a thousand rolls easily (instead of a million) or are they set up for 20-50 rolls at a time? Just curious if one of those were for sale, could an Efke, the Impossible Project or even a Freestyle use it to make enough film efficiently to generate a profit.
    Once a photographer is convinced that the camera can lie and that, strictly speaking, the vast majority of photographs are "camera lies," inasmuch as they tell only part of a story or tell it in a distorted form, half the battle is won. Once he has conceded that photography is not a "naturalistic" medium of rendition and that striving for "naturalism" in a photograph is futile, he can turn his attention to using a camera to make more effective pictures.

    Andreas Feininger

  6. #426
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    IDK how many research machines still exist nor do I know their condition. They might make usable product, but you would need a slitter, chopper and perfer. You would need spooling equipment for 35mm or interleaving equipment for sheet film. You would need an emulsion engineer and a coating engineer. Etc!!!

    So, Kevin, what is your point?

    If you bought one, who will make the emulsion, design the coatings, get your support and package it?

    PE

  7. #427

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    Quote Originally Posted by Photo Engineer View Post
    IDK how many research machines still exist nor do I know their condition. They might make usable product, but you would need a slitter, chopper and perfer. You would need spooling equipment for 35mm or interleaving equipment for sheet film. You would need an emulsion engineer and a coating engineer. Etc!!!

    So, Kevin, what is your point?

    If you bought one, who will make the emulsion, design the coatings, get your support and package it?

    PE
    PE, with 20,000+ posts here, you appear to have some free time. Might you consider putting your chef's hat back on again??

  8. #428

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    Quote Originally Posted by Photo Engineer View Post
    So, Kevin, what is your point?

    If you bought one, who will make the emulsion, design the coatings, get your support and package it?

    PE
    Well, Kevin mentioned Efke. Just as a thought exercise, if Fotokemika or some other company with current expertise in filmmaking were to buy one, they would presumably have the experienced engineers and could figure out how to use the machine. If someone else without expertise were to buy one, he'd need to hire some old pros and train some new pros. Seems like, anyway. Not that someone who bought such a machine could make Kodak emulsions, but if they had the skill to formulate emulsions, do the coating, slit, perf, package, etc., then they could make use of it.

  9. #429
    Kevin Kehler's Avatar
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    I was more curious as to if one were available to purchase (it doesn't sound like it), if it has any value to a smaller film maker or wannabe film maker. If you could get one and it saved 20-30% of a start-up costs over building a new machine, you wonder if that amount would be the tipping point between some company/individual purchasing it for usage or not investing in film production at all. I could see some movie maker with a passion for film (Christopher Nolan, for example) working the price of purchase and start up into a movie and using the film from that machine for their movies - what is a $1m expense for most blockbusters? The travel and feeding of the crew costs more in a couple weeks and it would free the studio from relying on Kodak for final analogue copies/back-ups. I actually think this might be the salvation of film to a limited extent, the movie studios forming a consortium to make film for their own purposes; they might not care about us still users but would preserve the knowledge/skills required (can't get a job at Universal Studios? See if Ilford/Adox/Fuji has an opening).

    I was more interested if they are (were) fully functional machines capable of being used for production or if they have limited functionality.
    Once a photographer is convinced that the camera can lie and that, strictly speaking, the vast majority of photographs are "camera lies," inasmuch as they tell only part of a story or tell it in a distorted form, half the battle is won. Once he has conceded that photography is not a "naturalistic" medium of rendition and that striving for "naturalism" in a photograph is futile, he can turn his attention to using a camera to make more effective pictures.

    Andreas Feininger

  10. #430

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    Kevin, the studios are increasingly going the digital route.



 

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