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  1. #91

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    Quote Originally Posted by zsas View Post
    The term is in reference to the fact that the film is a traditional emulsion and not a tabular grain (eg Delta, Tmax). Why shouldn't a company advertise the type of film it is? I don't believe there are many 100 ISO tabular (aka silver rich) films left; Efke KB100/ADOX CHS 100 just ended its run. I believe Foma, Kentmere and Lucky make a traditional 100. I don't believe Neopan 100 SS is around (least here in the States I don't see it). I look forward to trying the film out but don't understand why one needs to call a companie's language choice cringe worthy when the term is in ref to its nature that some might be interested in (traditional grain). I don't use tabular films and find the press release well done. I don't see any other film makers announcing an emulsion yet (hopefully Monday we hear more), so this is good news in my book.
    I'm with you, Andy. I have never embraced T-grain films either. Nothing against them, but I just haven't worked with them much.

    You need to edit your post above. You said " I don't believe there are many 100 ISO tabular (aka silver rich) films left; ..." Did you mean cubic grained?

  2. #92
    Thomas Bertilsson's Avatar
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    New at Photokina 2012: ADOX SILVERMAX 35mm film 135/36

    Quote Originally Posted by zsas View Post
    The term is in reference to the fact that the film is a traditional emulsion and not a tabular grain (eg Delta, Tmax). Why shouldn't a company advertise the type of film it is? I don't believe there are many 100 ISO tabular (aka silver rich) films left; Efke KB100/ADOX CHS 100 just ended its run. I believe Foma, Kentmere and Lucky make a traditional 100. I don't believe Neopan 100 SS is around (least here in the States I don't see it). I look forward to trying the film out but don't understand why one needs to call a companie's language choice cringe worthy when the term is in ref to its nature that some might be interested in (traditional grain). I don't use tabular films and find the press release well done. I don't see any other film makers announcing an emulsion yet (hopefully Monday we hear more), so this is good news in my book.
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  3. #93
    zsas's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by SkipA View Post
    I'm with you, Andy. I have never embraced T-grain films either. Nothing against them, but I just haven't worked with them much.

    You need to edit your post above. You said " I don't believe there are many 100 ISO tabular (aka silver rich) films left; ..." Did you mean cubic grained?
    Fixed, thanks for spotting that.

    Thomas, yes tho it is 125....he. But yes that is effectively a 100'ish film

    My list wasn't meant to be all of them, just making a point that we lost 3 trad films as of late (plus x, Efke 100 and Adox CHS 100) and as consumers more choice is better, but my main point is - why are some folks vilifying a company when the cringeworthy term (silver rich) is commonly used to indicate the film's type (trad or cubic)
    Andy

  4. #94
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    Quote Originally Posted by zsas View Post
    I look forward to trying the film out but don't understand why one needs to call a company's language choice cringe worthy when the term is in ref to its nature that some might be interested in (traditional grain).
    Because it is marketing fluff that leads you into thinking there is some inherently good thing that the film is silver rich. That is only a part of the equation. There is a limit to how much silver you can put into an emulsion without losing the excess straight into the fixer with no apparent effect.

    I guess the term may be "silver rich" in relation to the t-grain films but it is worded in such a way that it sounds like something otherworldly, while Silvermax is in fact in the ballpark of film technology such as Kentmere, Ilfords FP4/HP5 or any sort of traditional film. Of course I cannot say anything about its qualities, and it may well be a very good film. I sincerely hope so, and I would like Mirko and the crew to succeed - we all would benefit from diversity. Now that I have said all this, I am going to have to buy it and try it.

    I think it would be better to highlight the fact that it is a newly made film, that it is made in new facilities in Bad Saarow, that they are going to continue to support it, that it is possible to do slides with it, etc. Just that - and show us some real world examples. Get it out there, send off a pack or two to some good photographers, let them show what you can do with it. I guess that counts more than any amount of silver.
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  5. #95

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    Quote Originally Posted by Jerevan View Post
    There is a limit to how much silver you can put into an emulsion without losing the excess straight into the fixer with no apparent effect..
    Its fun getting too giggly too quick, isn't it?
    What if Adox found a way to make it possible?

  6. #96
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    I think Adox guys picked up the "silver rich" concept because their clients used to buy Adox films because Efke's old emulsions were said to be rich in silver. So it's sort of preaching to the converted.

    I just don't understand why they seem to have copied APX's spectral sensitivity chart. Is that another marketing ploy or just shooting from the hip?

  7. #97
    Richard Sintchak (rich815)'s Avatar
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    New at Photokina 2012: ADOX SILVERMAX 35mm film 135/36

    Quote Originally Posted by mablo View Post
    I think Adox guys picked up the "silver rich" concept because their clients used to buy Adox films because Efke's old emulsions were said to be rich in silver. So it's sort of preaching to the converted.

    I just don't understand why they seem to have copied APX's spectral sensitivity chart. Is that another marketing ploy or just shooting from the hip?
    Call me a skeptic but I'm waiting for proof it's not APX100...
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  8. #98
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jerevan View Post
    Because it is marketing fluff that leads you into thinking there is some inherently good thing that the film is silver rich. That is only a part of the equation. There is a limit to how much silver you can put into an emulsion without losing the excess straight into the fixer with no apparent effect.

    I guess the term may be "silver rich" in relation to the t-grain films but it is worded in such a way that it sounds like something otherworldly, while Silvermax is in fact in the ballpark of film technology such as Kentmere, Ilfords FP4/HP5 or any sort of traditional film. Of course I cannot say anything about its qualities, and it may well be a very good film. I sincerely hope so, and I would like Mirko and the crew to succeed - we all would benefit from diversity. Now that I have said all this, I am going to have to buy it and try it.

    I think it would be better to highlight the fact that it is a newly made film, that it is made in new facilities in Bad Saarow, that they are going to continue to support it, that it is possible to do slides with it, etc. Just that - and show us some real world examples. Get it out there, send off a pack or two to some good photographers, let them show what you can do with it. I guess that counts more than any amount of silver.

    APUG has a long history of members debating the use of the term “silver rich”. One thread had to be locked because folks were so passionate on either side!
    I find it inappropriate for folks (Michel Hardy-Vallée, Jerevan, et al) to be disparaging a manufacturer for using a term that commonly understood to us analog photographers. Silver rich is used to describe an emulsion that is traditional/cubic/not-tabular. It is not marketing BS or a gimmick as some have suggested. How is this, if anyone can have David Prakel amend his book Basics Photography: Working in Black & White and remove the word from future publications and thus rid the world of the term Silver Rich, then I will concede that the debate that some lobbed to Mirko about the semantics of using the term silver rich was valid. Also Steve Anchell’s [i]The Darkroom Cookbook[/] mentions the term, he does say it is a buzz word used to describe traditional emulsions but doesn’t that by virtue establish the word’s credibility?
    The consumers are not confused, ADOX is trying to differentiate their film from tabular films (Delta, TMAX, Acros 100), what harm is that? This need to protect the consumer from buzz words that have become understood in our small community (analog photogs) is not needed in my view. We have lost many films in the last few months (Efke, PlusX, Ektachrome), the last we need is folks calling out a manufacturer for the use of terms in their press releases.
    Some wonder why Kodak has never joined APUG, it is no wonder to me why they are not around here….
    Prakel’s book where he explicitly defines Silver Rich, if you can contact him and get him to rescind this page, then I will conceded that the polarizing word was inaprpriate for ADOX to have used in their press relase, see this page:
    http://books.google.com/books?id=x4q...abular&f=false



    BTW, in a few hours, Mirko is going to be at Photokina, I believe he said he will have the film there, you mention ADOX should be getting the film out there, I think that was the intent of this thread, hopefully someone in Germany can talk to him tomorrow and get a roll shot!! Do upadate with some intel folks...
    Andy

  9. #99

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    zsas: On the German Adox page they describe the film as "SILVERMAX hat im Vergleich zu normalen Filmen einen erhöhten Silbergehalt." Translation: "Silvermax features a higher silver content than normal films". I also remember a statement (if memory serves me right) that this film has 2.5x more silver than normal films. I just found it. The old? advertisement (quoted in the German fotoimpex bulletin board) read "SILVERMAX hat ca. 2,5 mal so viel Silber wie ein vergleichbarer 100 ASA Film." Translation: "Silvermax has approx. 2,5 times the silver content of a comparable 100 ASA film". So in this case "silver rich" is not used to refer to the film as a "traditional" film vs. T-grain films, it really means no more and no less than literally a silver-rich emulsion.
    I'm not going into the debate on what effect this will have - this has already been discussed on several occations at several places but I did want to point out what the meaning of "silver rich" is in regards to this film.

  10. #100
    Michel Hardy-Vallée's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by zsas View Post
    I find it inappropriate for folks (Michel Hardy-Vallée, Jerevan, et al) to be disparaging a manufacturer for using a term that commonly understood to us analog photographers. Silver rich is used to describe an emulsion that is traditional/cubic/not-tabular. It is not marketing BS or a gimmick as some have suggested.
    I'm afraid ADOX does not even use "silver rich" in the way you say (as a synonymous of "not-tabular"). Look:
    SILVERMAX has an increased silver-content compared to regular films. This enables him to built up more DMAX and reproduce up to 14 zones in our dedicated SILVERMAX Developer.This way SILVERMAX catches it all for you: brightest highlights and deepest shadows.
    http://www.adox.de/english/ADOX%20Fi...MAX_index.html
    So given all that has been said, yes I maintain that "silver rich" is a misnomer, and a gimmick. As a matter of fact, Efke films (i.e. the old ADOX films), which used to be called "silver rich" were the first thin-emulsion films, so they were actually silver-POOR, compared to the previous generations of films, a.k.a. thick emulsion films. Please quote your reference for the so-called "common knowledge" that silver-rich means "cubic."
    Using film since before it was hip.


    "One of the most singular characters of the hyposulphites, is the property their solutions possess of dissolving muriate of silver and retaining it in considerable quantity in permanent solution" — Sir John Frederick William Herschel, "On the Hyposulphurous Acid and its Compounds." The Edinburgh Philosophical Journal, Vol. 1 (8 Jan. 1819): 8-29. p. 11

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