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  1. #151
    michaelbsc's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by rich815 View Post
    This debate can be ended. Someone from Adox simply come out as say this:

    "I unequivocally and definitively state that the Silvermax film is not APX100,"

    Simple.
    I thought Mirko had already said that.

    I thought they were quite clear that it is absolutely based on APX 100, but is is not APX 100. So in my mind we should be thinking of it like it's APX 100's brother.

    If you stand me next to my brother and look at us it is abundantly clear that 1) we are not exactly the same person, and 2) we are very closely related to each other, probably from the same parents.

    I suspect if we were to get two camera bodies with matched lenses (*), and put a roll of SilverMax in one and a roll of real APX 100 in the other and shoot the scene, then develop in the same tank, we would get extremely similar but discernibly different results.

    (*) It's a sad comment that I suspect 35mm camera equipment has gotten so cheap that we can easily try this except for the availability the roll of APX 100.
    Michael Batchelor
    Industrial Informatics, Inc.
    www.industrialinformatics.com

    The camera catches light. The photographer catches life.

  2. #152
    Thomas Bertilsson's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by michaelbsc View Post
    I thought Mirko had already said that.

    I thought they were quite clear that it is absolutely based on APX 100, but is is not APX 100. So in my mind we should be thinking of it like it's APX 100's brother.

    If you stand me next to my brother and look at us it is abundantly clear that 1) we are not exactly the same person, and 2) we are very closely related to each other, probably from the same parents.

    I suspect if we were to get two camera bodies with matched lenses (*), and put a roll of SilverMax in one and a roll of real APX 100 in the other and shoot the scene, then develop in the same tank, we would get extremely similar but discernibly different results.

    (*) It's a sad comment that I suspect 35mm camera equipment has gotten so cheap that we can easily try this except for the availability the roll of APX 100.
    Or better yet, use a step wedge and then plot curves from both films.
    "Often moments come looking for us". - Robert Frank

    "Make good art!" - Neil Gaiman

    "...the heart and mind are the true lens of the camera". - Yousuf Karsh

  3. #153
    Richard Sintchak (rich815)'s Avatar
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    New at Photokina 2012: ADOX SILVERMAX 35mm film 135/36

    Quote Originally Posted by michaelbsc View Post
    I thought Mirko had already said that.
    I must have missed that. They seem to imply its different but seem to skirt actually directly saying such.
    -----------------------

    "Well, my photos are actually much better than they look..."

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  4. #154
    michaelbsc's Avatar
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    New at Photokina 2012: ADOX SILVERMAX 35mm film 135/36

    Quote Originally Posted by rich815 View Post
    I must have missed that. They seem to imply its different but seem to skirt actually directly saying such.
    See post 129 this thread, which refers back to Mirko's comment earlier that I can't actually find right now.

    It's based in APX 100. Slightly thicker emulsion with higher Dmax and contrast. Different base (clear). Same spectral response (because it's the same chemical emulsion just coated thicker).

    My earlier comment about antihalation layer was a tongue-in-cheek joke about the peanut gallery responses we would hear if they tried to claim that it truly was APX 100. I have no evidence that the antihalation layer is the same or different. It was a joke.

    But again, I'll say that I think we can treat it like APX 100 and get "substantially" the same results as if it were the real thing.

    I think Thomas's idea of a step wedge is great.
    Michael Batchelor
    Industrial Informatics, Inc.
    www.industrialinformatics.com

    The camera catches light. The photographer catches life.

  5. #155

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    All this discussion but no D Log E curve from the manufacturer or any one else.

  6. #156
    ADOX Fotoimpex's Avatar
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    you can use the 35mm base in medium format cameras
    This is not correct.
    There has been one attempt in history of a company converting 135micron thick triacetate into 120 films and the the product showed severe problems. There were thousands of claims.
    No other manufacturer ever did this.
    Apart from the problems you will run into this is only possible if you spool the films manually as far as I am informed. 120 spooling machines (for sure ours) will reject this base as the diameter of the film will be out of tolerance. There will be jams in the film guides as well.
    Due to the known issues, manual spooling is for us no alternative for a premium line product.

    What has been tried more sucesfully is to use the thinner but very stable 100 micron PET for 120 and 35mm film (the other way around).
    This leads to problems in perforating unless you adapt your machines specially to it which is costly and you end up with lightpiping in the 35mm films.
    We have sold the CHS films this way but we feel that a quality product cannot be sold with such an amount of lightpiping so we would not consider this for a premium line product.
    We undertook several research coatings in this field and tried with differend anti halation and backside blocking coatings but the lightpiping was not possible to control.
    So we decided to keep 35mm on triacetate.

    All larger manufacturers use:

    100 micron PET or triacetate for 120 film
    135 micron triacetate (greybase or clear) for 35mm film
    170 micron PET or triacetate for sheetfilm

    As far as Silvermax is concerned I alreday stated in the beginning that we used up old stock materials from Agfa in order to manufacturer this film and this is the reason why it is neither a rollfilm, nor a sheetfilm nor APX 100 which is coated onto greybase.

    Fomas R100 btw is made only as a 35mm film out of the same reasons.

    Mirko

  7. #157
    MDR
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    Thank you Mirko for answering the question.

    Dominik

  8. #158

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    Quote Originally Posted by ADOX Fotoimpex View Post
    ...There has been one attempt in history of a company converting 135micron thick triacetate into 120 films and the the product showed severe problems. There were thousands of claims....No other manufacturer ever did this....All larger manufacturers use:

    100 micron PET or triacetate for 120 film
    135 micron triacetate (greybase or clear) for 35mm film
    170 micron PET or triacetate for sheetfilm...
    It's 125 micron, not 135, but Ilford uses the same acetate master roll for both 35 mm and 120 Delta 3200. See the second and third paragraphs on page one here:


    It's been a long time since I shot it in 120 but, when I did, it was tinted gray just like 35 mm.

  9. #159

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    All this discussion but no D Log E curve from the manufacturer or any one else.

  10. #160
    Thomas Bertilsson's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by laser View Post
    All this discussion but no D Log E curve from the manufacturer or any one else.
    You could always purchase a roll of APX 100 and a roll of Silvermax each, expose a step wedge, and plot the graphs yourself if you have a densitometer.
    "Often moments come looking for us". - Robert Frank

    "Make good art!" - Neil Gaiman

    "...the heart and mind are the true lens of the camera". - Yousuf Karsh



 

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