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  1. #71
    Photo Engineer's Avatar
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    Kodak still makes top of the line sensors, and has had a recent major breakthrough in this area.

  2. #72
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    Quote Originally Posted by Photo Engineer View Post
    Kodak still makes top of the line sensors, and has had a recent major breakthrough in this area.
    Wouldn't it be cool if they could capitalize on this?
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  3. #73
    msa
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    Quote Originally Posted by Photo Engineer View Post
    For those of you who did not know this, Kodak has / had a rather extensive chip fabrication facility at Kodak Park. It was one full wing of B 81, the Physics Division, and that is where the first digital imaging sensors were made.

    PE
    Sure PE, but the companies I'm talking about have (or had, when they were in one piece), dozens and dozens of fabs in the US alone, and hundreds worldwide.

    It wouldn't make sense for Kodak to try to compete with them, since that market favors scale. Anyway, the PV ship sailed...straight to China.

    (Just like it doesn't make sense to try and compete with Epson and HP by making $50 printers.)

    Kodak should be focused on the high end sensor market, things they can do that nobody else can. Getting down in the mud on low margin products won't save the company.

  4. #74

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    Quote Originally Posted by msa View Post
    (Just like it doesn't make sense to try and compete with Epson and HP by making $50 printers.)
    It's not about the printers, it's about the ink and paper

  5. #75
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    Quote Originally Posted by Prof_Pixel View Post
    It is my understanding that the $330,000,000 figure applies to the total of 3,700 employees being cut in 2012 - that comes out to about $89,000 per employee being cut.
    The text says:

    The company has reduced its workforce by approximately 2,700 employees worldwide since the beginning of 2012. Kodak expects to reduce its workforce by approximately an additional 1,000 employees by the end of 2012. The annualized savings generated by these headcount reductions, including compensation and benefits, is approximately $330 million.

    (bold and underlined mine)

    The key word here is "annualised" (even if Steve would mark it is spelt "funny"...)

    That means that to arrive at that figure Kodak has summed the saving for a certain (undisclosed) number of years discounting each year value with a certain (undisclosed) discount rate.

    If we have let's say a flow of 6 years of savings (S1, S2, S3, ... S6), the present value of those savings, discounted at a let's say 4% discount rate, should be equal to:

    PV = S1/(1,04) + S2/((1,04)^2) + S3/((1,04)^3) + S4/((1,04)^4) +S5/((1,04)^5) +S6/((1,04)^6)

    If the rate is not specified and the number of years of future money flows is not specified the firm can come out with "any" number of "discounted" saving.

    $89.000 pro capite would be quite an excessive amount, I believe, also in the US. I don't think it includes overhead costs as the words "including compensation and benefits" seem to clearly state that other "less direct" labour cost items are not taken into this account.

    We should also consider that $89.000 is the discounted saving from the average world workforce cut and it might be that Kodak also cut jobs in countries where the average labour cost is less than in the US.

    Basically, though, the "annualised" 330 million $ is not a "serious" figure so to speak.

    If Kodak meant to discount only 1 year of savings the word which would be normally used is "discounted saving". "Annualised" is typically used for a flow of let's say at least three years (although annualising and discounting yearly are, in fact, the same operation and the words mean the same thing).
    Last edited by Diapositivo; 09-12-2012 at 03:42 PM. Click to view previous post history.
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  6. #76
    msa
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    Quote Originally Posted by Prof_Pixel View Post
    It's not about the printers, it's about the ink and paper
    I get that, but to sell ink you need an installed base of your printers.

    They've never made enough headway in that market to sell that much ink.

    Worse, when your chief selling point is "cheaper ink," that means you're giving up some of the margin the other guys use to recover their loss on the printers.

  7. #77

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    Now it's cheaper to buy a whole new printer than replacement ink...

    Lose money on every Sale but make it up in Volume ?
    - Bill Lynch

  8. #78

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    Kodak should have entered the ink jet market back in the early '90s (before Epson and HP), but was so attracted to thermal dye sublimation printing, they chose not to get involved with ink jet at that time.

    Thermal dye sub makes GREAT looking prints, but has a high materials cost because your must use 4 (or 3 in some cases) patches of dye, even if you don't need any of a color.

  9. #79
    msa
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    Quote Originally Posted by Prof_Pixel View Post
    Kodak should have entered the ink jet market back in the early '90s (before Epson and HP), but was so attracted to thermal dye sublimation printing, they chose not to get involved with ink jet at that time.

    Thermal dye sub makes GREAT looking prints, but has a high materials cost because your must use 4 (or 3 in some cases) patches of dye, even if you don't need any of a color.
    They missed that opportunity, but I think they'd have had to start even earlier. I bought an HP Deskjet 500 in 1992 or so. Still works, too. (Not that I use it.)

    EDIT: Found this: http://www.hp.com/hpinfo/newsroom/pr...ivtimeline.pdf

    Looks like the original DeskJet shipped in 1988. Kodak had its own problems at the time, and probably was not focused on new markets.

    Quote Originally Posted by wblynch View Post
    Now it's cheaper to buy a whole new printer than replacement ink...

    Lose money on every Sale but make it up in Volume ?
    And this is why I see the cheapest printers on the market at thrift shops.

    They've caught onto this, by the way -- If you read labels carefully, in the last couple of years they've started underloading the starter cartridges... even toner, not just ink. I was looking at a LASER printer the other day, 2500 pages per cartridge*

    * Except, you know, the one they give you, which is only filled for 600 pages.

    Anyway, the margin on that stuff is huge -- it's a definite moneymaker. Problem is, since the printers are an automatic loss, you don't make any money until you've got quite a bit of the market. And that space is..occupied.
    Last edited by msa; 09-12-2012 at 04:48 PM. Click to view previous post history.

  10. #80

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    Quote Originally Posted by Thomas Bertilsson View Post
    Didn't they make sensors for the Leica M8 and M9 cameras?
    Yep, but Kodak sold off that division. Anything successful, sell it off.

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