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  1. #21

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    Quote Originally Posted by Helinophoto View Post
    Anyone shooting film, be it large format, medium format, 35mm or more obscure formats, pinhole, lomo or whatever, are all equally important to the community, I believe some of the older shooters out there may have their own opinion on lomo-shooters, but they DO indeed contribute.

    Just recently, I visited a lab in the middle of Oslo (they hang around in the main building to our largest national newspaper), and they have devoted a very large section of their store to lomo-stuff.
    The guy behind the counter (where they also had a stacked freezer full of film) told me they process and sell loads of film these days, both to more traditional folks and also a large part to the lomo-crowd.

    Lomo is just another way of expressing yourself creatively and I am glad they do it using analog media.

    Now, if APUG had a proper Lomo-forum, not only would they have another group of potential subscribers, the Lomo-shooters are the most probable people to sniff around and start checking out the traditional photography craft.

    By not including them properly, or really trying to reach out to them, we're hurting the community more than we help it IMO. (someone needs to take over when we all die :P)

    Absolutely spot on. Well written and stated.

  2. #22
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    Quote Originally Posted by Helinophoto View Post
    Anyone shooting film, be it large format, medium format, 35mm or more obscure formats, pinhole, lomo or whatever, are all equally important to the community, I believe some of the older shooters out there may have their own opinion on lomo-shooters, but they DO indeed contribute.

    Just recently, I visited a lab in the middle of Oslo (they hang around in the main building to our largest national newspaper), and they have devoted a very large section of their store to lomo-stuff.
    The guy behind the counter (where they also had a stacked freezer full of film) told me they process and sell loads of film these days, both to more traditional folks and also a large part to the lomo-crowd.

    Lomo is just another way of expressing yourself creatively and I am glad they do it using analog media.

    Now, if APUG had a proper Lomo-forum, not only would they have another group of potential subscribers, the Lomo-shooters are the most probable people to sniff around and start checking out the traditional photography craft.

    By not including them properly, or really trying to reach out to them, we're hurting the community more than we help it IMO. (someone needs to take over when we all die :P)
    You should consider starting a thread about this in the Feedback forum. Sean and the Moderators may or may not see it here.

    As an aside - doesn't "Sean and the Moderators" sound like a good name for a band?
    Matt

    “Photography is a complex and fluid medium, and its many factors are not applied in simple sequence. Rather, the process may be likened to the art of the juggler in keeping many balls in the air at one time!”

    Ansel Adams, from the introduction to The Negative - The New Ansel Adams Photography Series / Book 2

  3. #23

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    I too think Helinophoto is absolutely right..welcome the lomo crowd and let them see what else is available to explore. Matt's idea of a feedback thread is also a good idea to push this along.

  4. #24
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    Lomographers are good for the analog community in general, since their use of film makes our favorite photographic medium more commercially viable in the long run. Besides that I see little mutual benefit between these two groups, and anyone interested in both is able to join as many forums as one wants to cover the whole range of interests.

    Look at this thread if you want to see what happens when APUGs known experts in photo chemistry run into lomographers. Astronomic units can't describe the distances these two worlds are apart.
    Trying to be the best of whatever I am, even if what I am is no good.

  5. #25
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rudeofus View Post
    Lomographers are good for the analog community in general, since their use of film makes our favorite photographic medium more commercially viable in the long run. Besides that I see little mutual benefit between these two groups, and anyone interested in both is able to join as many forums as one wants to cover the whole range of interests.
    Getting them into the "fold" is the best way to teach and expand their minds a little.

    Quote Originally Posted by Rudeofus View Post
    Look at this thread if you want to see what happens when APUGs known experts in photo chemistry run into lomographers. Astronomic units can't describe the distances these two worlds are apart.
    Frankly, I don't see the relation of this crazy lady picking on our PE and Lomography.

    Lomography is about shooting expired/iffy film, on the fly (more or less to capture a moment) with dodgy cameras, creating unexpected effects from the dodgy optics, light leaks and/or from processing the dodgy film.
    - It's just an art-form (hipster art some may say).

    The crazy and angry lady in the thread in question was just your average internet passive-agressive weirdo, kind of unfair making her a representative of a whole new generation of photographers.

    Besides, that thread should have been moved to alternative processing, where APUG'ers often try out processing film in everything from potatoes to Ketchup
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  6. #26
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    Quote Originally Posted by Helinophoto View Post
    Getting them into the "fold" is the best way to teach and expand their minds a little.
    They need as much "mind expanding" as we on APUG would need. While the Lomo crowd in general doesn't know (or care) all that much about photo chemistry, MTF, characteristic curves, repeatability and the zone system, they are great when it comes to embracing randomness in artistic expression, creativity is rampant and we could learn a lot from them about using expressionist colors to communicate mood and emotion.

    Only a small minority on each side is willing to accept the viewpoint of the other side, and I see little point in shoehorning both into one forum. Your posting is a prime example why these two worlds will stay apart for the time being.
    Trying to be the best of whatever I am, even if what I am is no good.

  7. #27
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    I do agree that out of 100 Lomo-shooters, there will be _maybe_ 10 who will grow out of that phase (and they will) and may look to move on to "controllable creativity", because they may want to know why some effect happened and how they can repeat that exact effect. That's new blood to a shrinking community.
    - I would say though, that 90% of the people here, did not start out by perfecting the zone system or with "one film, one dev, do not try anything else before you master that first", most folks here shot with what they had and the film they could get hold of in the beginning.

    Also, you should consider the fact that the Lomo-shooters are a much younger generation (14-late 20's), off course they want to have _fun_ with it, nothing wrong with that.

    APUG stands for Analog Photography User Group, I see nothing that would exclude anyone, based on the fact that they may be shooting with a crappy camera and expired film and really don't care much for the technical stuff.

    I don't own any Lomo-stuff myself (was tempted to buy a Lubitel once but...) and I see myself as a pretty "standard" photographer concerning (traditional) photography, but I have absolutely nothing negative to say about the Lomographers. (but I may be in the younger group in here anyway, seeing I am "only" 38, i don't know ).

    The part about my posting being a prime example why these two worlds will stay apart, I didn't quite understand.
    I see you disagree with me and you have all the right to do so, but I think you are missing my point here.
    Last edited by Helinophoto; 11-24-2012 at 01:28 PM. Click to view previous post history.
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    "Nice picture, you must have an amazing camera."
    Visit my photography blog at: http://helino-photo.blogspot.com

  8. #28

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    Helinophoto we agree again . I do have a debonair lomo style camera I got fro m the "film photography project" and I'm curious what I can get out of it (the first roll I shot was borked due to bad developer) however I shoot mostly with traditional film cameras. To me the point of this is enjoying film. A lot of folks are having fun with lomo products and they should be welcomed to APUG where they can discuss lomography or explore other aspects of film. Lomography can be their chosen art for or a gateway drug depending on the individual.

  9. #29
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    Indeed, that's exactly what I am thinking as well. (in fact, there are a lot of Lomo-shooters who are developing their own black and white films, but most probably send them in for processing these days). But eventyually, as most people, some of them will naturally ask "why" and "how".

    For those who would like to "know their enemy", here is a free documentary on vimeo about the beginnings, meaning and how it is today.
    (It also features a cold-war era Putin ): http://youtu.be/8TiAsvYgyqU
    Last edited by Helinophoto; 11-24-2012 at 02:42 PM. Click to view previous post history.
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  10. #30
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    Quote Originally Posted by Helinophoto View Post
    I do agree that out of 100 Lomo-shooters, there will be _maybe_ 10 who will grow out of that phase (and they will) and may look to move on to "controllable creativity", because they may want to know why some effect happened and how they can repeat that exact effect. That's new blood to a shrinking community.
    I guess the main point where we disagree is that you portrait Lomo shooters as immature kids who may or may not grow into "real analog photographers". A significant part of them may really be youngsters coming from the digital generation who suddenly got immersed in the magic that analog photography appears to be (to them at least), but that can't possibly carry a movement of that size for so many years. Their careless attitude towards technical details and their endorsement of randomness unleashes a tremendous outpour of creativity.

    Quote Originally Posted by Helinophoto View Post
    I would say though, that 90% of the people here, did not start out by perfecting the zone system or with "one film, one dev, do not try anything else before you master that first", most folks here shot with what they had and the film they could get hold of in the beginning.
    The question is, and I think this is the biggest thing that separates the APUG crowd from Lomography, whether one considers lack of technical proficiency as a deficit and something to work on, or an opportunity and even an asset. This is precisely where the "hair dye" thread became ugly, and your quote "this crazy lady picking on our PE" highlights that. In Pickle's world, she unlocked a secret door in some magical garden, and she hoped we would rejoice about this. APUG replied by telling her the door was rusty and the key couldn't have possibly worked. From a lock smith's perspective that's absolutely valid, yet in the magical Lomo world APUG completely missed the point.

    Quote Originally Posted by Helinophoto View Post
    APUG stands for Analog Photography User Group, I see nothing that would exclude anyone, based on the fact that they may be shooting with a crappy camera and expired film and really don't care much for the technical stuff.
    Nobody excludes them, and AFAIK Sean doesn't provide photographic aptitude tests for new APUG members. But let's not forget that Lomo is heavily marketed, and the company behind Lomo fosters a strong community. Luring these people towards APUG will take a lot of effort, and telling them they are immature tinkerers "who need to be taught and who need to expand their minds" is probably not going to work as intended.
    Trying to be the best of whatever I am, even if what I am is no good.

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