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  1. #101
    StoneNYC's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ken Nadvornick View Post
    Yes, you are of course correct.

    I was thinking more along the lines of either first- or second-tier manufacturers with a global presence, not necessarily smaller, regional third-tier players. From the Big Four, three have crashed and burned. And the fourth is getting perilously close, at least for film. And of course at another level there is/was Efke, who was a bit of a different animal.

    The biggest, EK, is now in the process of reconstituting in the form of Alaris. Agfa morphed into AgfaPhoto, which itself crashed. But Adox is slowly reconstituting parts of that product line as market conditions allow. Harman/Ilford is, of course, the gold standard of the reconstitution process itself. And Fujifilm is lurching toward an uncertain film future that is typically inscrutable. They could crash tomorrow, or ten years from tomorrow, and I wouldn't be surprised either way. And wouldn't know of it until the very day it happened.

    So as of the moment, all four are still with us in some form, with three already reworked (or reworking) into formats with hopefully better chances of survival.

    Besides those there is also Impossible Project (who seem to be doing just fine in spite of Fujifilm's mature instant offerings), and a possible sleeper in Ferrania, who is reportedly working on those newly reengineered E-6 possibilities everyone is talking about. If Fujifilm throws in the towel, Ferrania would have that niche market all to themselves. And if they can solve the problems of niche manufacturing (and I don't see why they would even be trying to reconstitute themselves if they didn't think they could), that market could be lucrative as a niche monopoly.

    So really, in the recent past none of the bigger players has actually gone out of business for good. It's been painful. Excruciatingly painful in some cases. But they are still around and still trying to downsize in various ways.

    And a few new efforts are also showing promise. The TIP films have improved dramatically in quality, I hear. Adox has just released a new film to good reviews. And has also reconstituted some legendary b&w papers as well, with more on the way. Harman has added several new products, including of all things large format pinhole cameras that are apparently selling well. Well enough that they expanded from 4x5 into 8x10. Who knew??

    So I question this breathlessly panicked doomsday attitude that postulates we must all just shut up, never make any of our new/old product wishes known, and buy as much of whatever Kodak tells us to buy as we can because the film world is about to go extinct by tomorrow morning. Really?

    Ken
    I don't think it's about shutting up for that reason, I think it's more about the fact that we as photographers may complain and bitch about things, but we also understand the dynamics of it, but when we speak about those things around nine photo folk, that may purchase onesies-twosies but actually be fairly useful in the purchasing market they may stop purchasing because of our complaints thinking that Kodak is no longer any good, and it's that trickle-down effect that I think that Dan is speaking about, one pro photographer talks badly about Kodak, and then that person tells a couple friends "oh my photographer friend said blah blah blah about Kodak" and eventually everybody thinks that Kodak stopped making film, which is the case because of the whole Kodachrome issue, have to people I talk to think that all film has been discontinued because they saw on the news that Kodachrome was being discontinued as a film. So I think Dan is just saying we need to be careful about how we speak about film, and especially to those who aren't in the know, so we don't end up shooting ourselves in the foot in the long run.
    ~Stone | "...of course, that's just my opinion. I could be wrong." ~Dennis Miller

  2. #102
    Ken Nadvornick's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by StoneNYC View Post
    I don't think it's about shutting up for that reason...
    PM reply sent, so as not to further upset people...

    Ken
    "They are the proof that something was there and no longer is. Like a stain. And the stillness of them is boggling. You can turn away but when you come back they’ll still be there looking at you."

    — Diane Arbus, March 15, 1971, in response to a request for a brief statement about photographs

  3. #103
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    Long Live Tri X.
    - Derek
    [ Insert meaningless camera listing here ]

  4. #104
    AgX
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ken Nadvornick View Post
    So I question this breathlessly panicked doomsday attitude that postulates we must all just shut up, never make any of our new/old product wishes known, and buy as much of whatever Kodak tells us to buy as we can because the film world is about to go extinct by tomorrow morning.
    The problem is that at least at the moment all those small enterprises are dependant directly or even indirectly on the big companies.

  5. #105

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    There is a somewhat sinister momentum that has been taking place in regards to the public's awareness on film ever since all the news about the demise of Kodachrome that Stone is talking about. He is right in that far too many people think Kodachrome being gone means film is gone. This is a problem for us film users and the film makers but it is a "Golden" opportunity for some other folks, Nikon, Canon, Apple, etc.

    I have it on good authority that the only reason Nikon stopped taking film based entries in their long standing photo contest was purely marketing, to convince people that film really does not exist at all as far as they are concerned. They are not the only ones, there are literally hundreds of web personas that work very hard to keep people chasing the digital rainbow and do everything they can to say no, you can not buy film, you can not get it developed, you now have to use digital, you don't have a choice.

    This is sinister momentum folks, these people do not want potential buyers of a brand new $2,700 retro Nikon Df to think that they can just buy a second hand FM2 or F3 and still enjoy film, they are also in a perilous market and desperate shareholder situation and *every* single time someone on a site like this one complains about what films they no longer have so why bother using Kodak, Fuji, etc.....it greases the rails for that sinister momentum and makes the jobs of the digital marketing force that much easier.

    This is NO JOKE dammit, so THINK about this next time you ask for Pan-F in 4x5 or the return of Kodak E6. The best thing you can do as a film user to help market digital is keep asking for films that have been discontinued. Because you are making a potential film user feel like they are late to the party and all the good stuff is gone, so why bother.

    It's completely baffling to me how some can not see this...
    Last edited by PKM-25; 11-11-2013 at 04:48 AM. Click to view previous post history.
    "I'm the freak that shoots film. God bless the freaks!" ~ Mainecoonmaniac ~

  6. #106
    AgX
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    Quote Originally Posted by PKM-25 View Post
    There is a somewhat sinister momentum that has been taking place in regards to the public's awareness on film ever since all the news about the demise of Kodachrome that Stone is talking about. He is right in that far too many people think Kodachrome being gone means film is gone.
    Keep in mind that Kodachrome only had that iconic value in parts of the world and and thus its demise is only relevant to that fraction of the public.

  7. #107
    StoneNYC's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by PKM-25 View Post
    There is a somewhat sinister momentum that has been taking place in regards to the public's awareness on film ever since all the news about the demise of Kodachrome that Stone is talking about. He is right in that far too many people think Kodachrome being gone means film is gone. This is a problem for us film users and the film makers but it is a "Golden" opportunity for some other folks, Nikon, Canon, Apple, etc.

    I have it on good authority that the only reason Nikon stopped taking film based entries in their long standing photo contest was purely marketing, to convince people that film really does not exist at all as far as they are concerned. They are not the only ones, there are literally hundreds of web personas that work very hard to keep people chasing the digital rainbow and do everything they can to say no, you can not buy film, you can not get it developed, you now have to use digital, you don't have a choice.

    This is sinister momentum folks, these people do not want potential buyers of a brand new $2,700 retro Nikon Df to think that they can just buy a second hand FM2 or F3 and still enjoy film, they are also in a perilous market and desperate shareholder situation and *every* single time someone on a site like this one complains about what films they no longer have so why bother using Kodak, Fuji, etc.....it greases the rails for that sinister momentum and makes the jobs of the digital marketing force that much easier.

    This is NO JOKE dammit, so THINK about this next time you ask for Pan-F in 4x5 or the return of Kodak E6. The best thing you can do as a film user to help market digital is keep asking for films that have been discontinued. Because you are making a potential film user feel like they are late to the party and all the good stuff is gone, so why bother.

    It's completely baffling to me how some can not see this...
    I agree with everything except the PanF+ in 4x5 part. Not only because that would be friggin awesome! But specifically because I don't think it's dangerous to encourage the current companies to developing new films, or to expand their lines, if they are capable and the market will support it. If they were able to produce PanF+ on a thicker base, make it properly and make it without re-doing the entire thing, they would, many people ask for it.

    Adox is making new films, Ferrania is too, so I think it's natural for companies like ilford and kodak to at least look into new products even if it's only to a small degree.

    Anyway I think as long as it's not LAMENTING and just "oh this film is so great, I hope someday they make it in X size" I think that's fine.

    Also saying "man! Neopan400 was such a great film! But when it stopped being made I started using Kodak Double-X and that's GREAT!"

    But saying "man film sucks now ever since Kodakchrome died" well that's a fools errand....
    ~Stone | "...of course, that's just my opinion. I could be wrong." ~Dennis Miller

  8. #108
    StoneNYC's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by AgX View Post
    Keep in mind that Kodachrome only had that iconic value in parts of the world and and thus its demise is only relevant to that fraction of the public.
    I completely disagree, because people aren't that where a film in general, if you don't know that much about film, and you hear "no more Kodak Kodachrome" on the news, in any sense of it, most people immediately assume that all film is gone, since they don't see it anymore, it's not sold very often, there's no advertisements for it, and people don't generally see it being used. But yet the news reports about Kodachrome were all over the world, and many people from many countries that aren't in the no believe now that film is gone. In fact tonight I met a girl who looked at me and said "that's a film camera? I thought you couldn't even get film anymore, I saw on the news like a couple of years ago" to which I replied to film is still alive and well they're still making it that he's making you found, and you can mostly get it on the Internet, to which she replied "yea but where do you get it developed, I didn't don't see any labs anymore" to which I replied that you can go to CVS or Walgreens or Rite Aid etc., and she said "really??! Are you sure? I haven't seen any "labs"" ... I asked her if she had seen the photo centers, she answered yes, and I said well that's the lab, they just don't call it a lab anymore and often they mail it out to another location to all have the same processing done in one place to save money. She said "oh" and that was it.

    I have this kind of conversation very very often....
    ~Stone | "...of course, that's just my opinion. I could be wrong." ~Dennis Miller

  9. #109
    AgX
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    Kodachrome is not that an icon in parts of the world as it is in the USA.

    That a news agency reports about Kodachrome being cancelled does not necessarily mean that many people in that country can begin something with that name. I'm sure asking people here on the street would show that the majority does not know Kodachrome.
    Last edited by AgX; 11-11-2013 at 05:44 AM. Click to view previous post history.

  10. #110

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    Dear Miha,

    Its not an issue but just on a few points : KENTMERE Photographic did not go 'belly up' KENTMERE Photographic was a profitable company when HARMAN technology Limited bought it and it remains so to this day although now absorbed into HARMAN, KENTMERE Photographic also had a wide range of wide format inkjet products as well that HARMAN technology continue to coat.

    The KENTMERE range of products including mono RC paper, inkjet and film form an important part of our portfolio now and going forward.

    Finally, HARMAN technology Limited is based in Mobberley, CHESHIRE ( not Macclesfield although it is quite near ) this was the former ILFORD Imaging factory built in 1984 on the site of the RAJAR photo works that have been at Mobberley since 1903.

    The 6 Original Board Directors of HARMAN technology were all Senior Managers at ILFORD Imaging Limited and had ( and have ) in excess of 140 years service to ILFORD / HARMAN.

    Simon ILFORD Photo / HARMAN technology Limited



 

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