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  1. #111

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    Dear Simon, thanks for the update. It's true that Kentmere never went belly up, but it's also true that 6 years after the "marriage of ideals" (your words) there is little left of Kentmere that is of interest to the analogue photographic world. I'm also not suggesting that they would survive on their own nor that it is your fault as we are facing some rough times as I already said in my previous post. I just put their name alongside some of the finest names in the industry that are no longer with us. I wish you well as our hobby (and profession) depend on your prosperity.

  2. #112
    AgX
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    Yes, there is a difference between an independant company still existing and part of its product range being continued by a competitor.

  3. #113
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    Quote Originally Posted by AgX View Post
    Kodachrome is not that an icon in parts of the world as it is in the USA.

    That a news agency reports about Kodachrome being cancelled does not necessarily mean that many people in that country can begin something with that name. I'm sure asking people here on the street would show that the majority does not know Kodachrome.
    Ahh again it's about pekoe understanding about what FILM is. Why not ask them "where can I buy some film for my camera" and I'm sure many will ask "I don't think they make film anymore" and my point was that the Kodachrome news was part of the global idea that film was going away. They never separated "Kodachrome" from "film"

    Anyway it's just a thought, why not ask? Try and see what people say?
    ~Stone | "...of course, that's just my opinion. I could be wrong." ~Dennis Miller

  4. #114
    AgX
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    In most small places around (of about 10,000 people) there still is a photo-shop that still sells film (I even can get APS film), and there are two large drugstore chains with a lot of stores around.
    Both got films, C-41, E-6, b&w. One chain even offered Ektar until recently.


    The question people over here rather will ask is "Who is still using film?"
    Last edited by AgX; 11-11-2013 at 09:15 AM. Click to view previous post history.

  5. #115
    StoneNYC's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by AgX View Post
    In most small places around (of about 10,000 People) there still is a photo-shop that still sells film (I even can get APS film), and there are two large drugstore chains with a lot of stores around.
    Both got films, C-41, E-6, b&w. One got even Ektar until recently.


    The question people over here rather will ask is "Who is still using film?"
    I don't deny that there are still shows, but unless you're a photographer you might not notice them... That's what I mean, other people don't know what we know.

    Just try it, ask a few people in town where to buy film for your camera and see what they say...
    ~Stone | "...of course, that's just my opinion. I could be wrong." ~Dennis Miller

  6. #116
    AgX
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    As I indicated everyone going to one of these shops either will see films at eye-height behind the counter or will pass them and all
    those single-use cameras on the shelves next to those digital kiosk devices.
    Film is well presented.

    The decreasing acceptance of film is the issue.
    And even persons from the industry who should know the market are drawing a picture worse than the actual situation.
    Last edited by AgX; 11-11-2013 at 09:27 AM. Click to view previous post history.

  7. #117
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    Quote Originally Posted by StoneNYC View Post
    I agree with everything except the PanF+ in 4x5 part. Not only because that would be friggin awesome! But specifically because I don't think it's dangerous to encourage the current companies to developing new films, or to expand their lines, if they are capable and the market will support it. If they were able to produce PanF+ on a thicker base, make it properly and make it without re-doing the entire thing, they would, many people ask for it.
    That question has been asked and answered many times. As much as I love Pan-F it's not going to happen. Better to ask of any of these companies "are you working on any new products?" Ilford considered a Delta 25 a few years back and decided that the market didn't exist, but there may be a market for other new offerings, as there was for Kentmere 100 and 400.

    Like John Lennon's quote about Elvis, for me they killed Kodachrome when the 25 speed went away.

  8. #118

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    All I am trying to get people to do is to help stop the momentum that the digital-only companies are more than happy to see persist. And to be fair, I think the worst damage of asking for what we no longer have and won't is on these industry and product availability types of threads as there tends to be less reference to how great the existing films are.

    AGX, I am not sure how much you get out on a daily basis and relate to people directly because of photography but for me, it is a ton and in one of the most photographed places in the world. So I ask people where they heard they can no longer buy film anymore and the reply 99% of the time? The Internet!

    I would be an idiot to say that no one should ever ask a film making company if they could make a new film or a current one in a new format, especially in the case of Ilford. But I also believe that every time that appears on a google search cached web page, it is great marketing for the companies pushing digital products, so I totally avoid it.

    I don't think, I know that black and white film is and will be fine for the rest of my career, but because of the ruthless nature of this momentum of public perception, I make a point of saying how much I love Pan-F in 120, Tmax in 4x5, etc. Some people tend to think that the niche of film is like any other product in how it should be marketed and that it is subject to the same forces as other products. Well no, it is not and not only is it a niche, it is one that can get in the way of selling digital products so the fight going on right in front of your nose is downright ruthless.

  9. #119
    Ken Nadvornick's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by PKM-25 View Post
    It's completely baffling to me how some can not see this...
    So then, assuming for just a moment that such an international anti-film grand conspiracy is true, it's comforting to know that Alaris is already on it. They are on it, aren't they? By quickly rolling out highly visible new advertising and awareness campaigns to counter and blunt this digital conspiracy against film? And to begin shifting the marketplace back into their favor? I mean, if all of this is true wouldn't their very survival in the marketplace depend on it? And if this conspiracy is as sinister—and existential—as described, there would not be a moment to lose.

    Right?

    Perhaps the understanding you seek is already contained within your above assertion...

    Ken
    Last edited by Ken Nadvornick; 11-11-2013 at 12:19 PM. Click to view previous post history. Reason: Oops, missing word...
    "They are the proof that something was there and no longer is. Like a stain. And the stillness of them is boggling. You can turn away but when you come back they’ll still be there looking at you."

    — Diane Arbus, March 15, 1971, in response to a request for a brief statement about photographs

  10. #120

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    Quote Originally Posted by Ken Nadvornick View Post
    So then, assuming for just a moment that such an international anti-film grand conspiracy is true, it's comforting to know that Alaris is already on it. They are on it, aren't they?
    You forgot to add Ilford and Fuji in there…why is that Ken? And it is not anti-film Ken, it is digital companies taking full advantage of a momentum of public perception, feeding it in any way they can, applauding those film users who replace the internet shared notion of how great Tmax 100 is with gosh I wish I had my Plus-X.

    Yes, Kodak alaris is on it, those who work for them, Colleen Krenzer, Audrey Jonckheer, they are constantly showcasing new talent on the Kodak Pro Facebook page, and are with the guidance and support of Alaris members, currently evaluating how market trends like smart phones putting dents in DSLR sales, etc. affect their strategies. Great Kodak film shooters like John Sexton and ULF film vendors like KB Canham Cameras all link and like each other on Facebook to great effect, that is proper marketing Ken.
    All film makers have to carefully consider how they spend their money to sell their products and rely heavily on word of mouth and people with high levels of talent showing proof that film is a worthwhile medium. Nikon has used Aston Kutcher to sell point and shoots because the sheer numbers of digi-sales and the momentum of digital makes it easy to take that chance.

    Ilford will not be hiring Brad Pitt to appear on TV to gush about photos of Angelina Jolie shot on Delta100 nor will they pay for a $30,000 one page, one run ad in Vogue to do the same, that is out of context in a world that is convinced that the latest and greatest is the way to go.

    Because what is different for Kodak, Fuji and Ilford in terms of marketing is that they are no longer mainstream, the go to medium for the casual snapper so they do not have the sheer thrust of the marketing hype that digital got lucky with right when the information and social media age started to really take off. So all these film makers have to be careful about how their higher visibility promotion comes off….it could look desperate and in the case of Kodak-alaris, it could *look* reckless and risky in terms of use of capitol since they are fresh out of bankruptcy proceedings.

    No matter what any film maker has in store in terms of marketing, because they are a niche product, they rely more heavily on word of mouth than other more mainstream companies, this will never change because the fact that film is niche will never change.

    Perhaps ask Kodak in person what they have planned to market film…and while you are at it, perhaps ask them if they need any help in showing how great their films are and if they need a great image from you in which to do that with? That is what I do. Fuji does not need ANY help from me in showing how great my X100S is, they have momentum and public perception.

    But all makers of film need our help in keeping film a healthy niche, and that includes inspiring potential new users with a positive outlook and visually celebrate what awesome films we have in a digital age.
    Last edited by PKM-25; 11-11-2013 at 12:34 PM. Click to view previous post history.



 

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