Switch to English Language Passer en langue française Omschakelen naar Nederlandse Taal Wechseln Sie zu deutschen Sprache Passa alla lingua italiana
Members: 70,208   Posts: 1,531,931   Online: 1102
      
Page 7 of 22 FirstFirst 1234567891011121317 ... LastLast
Results 61 to 70 of 213
  1. #61
    Ken Nadvornick's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2005
    Location
    Monroe, WA, USA
    Shooter
    Multi Format
    Posts
    3,165
    Images
    48
    Quote Originally Posted by PKM-25 View Post
    WHAT? They ARE!!!!
    The point being made of course is that were the poster to have been gagged from discussing his own personal dissatisfaction with EK (not Alaris), then Alaris would have had at its disposal one less valuable data point from which to measure their new situation and draw meaningful actionable conclusions.

    You of all people should understand that criticism is FAR more valuable to growth than compliments. If the various post-mortem business analyses I've read are even moderately correct, stifled alternative points of view from within contributed mightily to EK's eventual downfall. No one wanted to listen to those who warned of approaching problems. I've also heard that same thing right here from various ex-EK employees.

    If I show ten people one of my dorky amateur photos and nine of them tell me I'm a genius, those nine will each get a sincere smile and thank you in return. But the tenth person who called me a talentless idiot? THAT person will get as many hours of my undivided attention as he needs to explain to me exactly why he feels that way. And when he finishes the thank you he gets from me will be far, far more meaningful, because his criticism was far, far more valuable to my future growth.

    The deal here is to defend the right, and value, of opposing points of view. There is no quicker way to lose your way than to surround yourself with nothing but people who will tell you exactly what you want to hear. Echo chambers can be devastating to one's grasp on reality. (As an aside, that's exactly why I have never, and will never, put anybody here on an ignore list.)

    It's not necessary to believe that what the poster said was true for anyone but him. And, in fact, he never claimed to be speaking for anyone but himself.* But I strongly believe it IS crucial for both us and Alaris to hear him out. And others like him. Not emotionally. But analytically.

    Think about what he says. Weigh and compare it objectively. Measure it against other opinions received. Decide if it illuminates the situation in ways that perhaps may have been inadvertently overlooked. And then form and carry out a remedial plan of action if one concludes that might be warranted.

    But regardless of where his data leads, smile and thank that person for their honest input. It's priceless. Don't gag and threaten him with personal responsibility for destroying the entire industry. Do that, and both you and the companies you support will never improve.

    Remember, if all one ever does is succeed, one will never grow. It takes failure to stake out the areas requiring improvement. Without failure, and recognition of it, your limits will never be known to you. And without knowing those limits, it's impossible to formulate a plan to exceed them.

    Ken

    * The poster referred to above uses "I", "my", or "me" no less than 17 times in his short 13 sentence post. I really don't believe he is trying to speak for anyone other than himself.
    Last edited by Ken Nadvornick; 11-09-2013 at 12:28 AM. Click to view previous post history. Reason: Formatting change for better readability...
    "They are the proof that something was there and no longer is. Like a stain. And the stillness of them is boggling. You can turn away but when you come back they’ll still be there looking at you."

    — Diane Arbus, March 15, 1971, in response to a request for a brief statement about photographs

  2. #62

    Join Date
    Nov 2004
    Location
    The highest state
    Shooter
    Multi Format
    Posts
    1,887
    My black and white flag just turned white, I surrender for now, I gotta go. I just see no point in anymore negative threads, film needs help.
    I did this post to kind of sum it up, be sure to check out the video, its exactly what I am out living in when I am not distracted by these kinds of battle ground threads...I think I have burned a few hundred calories over this one.

  3. #63
    StoneNYC's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2012
    Location
    Connecticut, USA
    Shooter
    8x10 Format
    Posts
    7,213
    Images
    225
    Quote Originally Posted by PKM-25 View Post
    My black and white flag just turned white, I surrender for now, I gotta go. I just see no point in anymore negative threads, film needs help.
    I did this post to kind of sum it up, be sure to check out the video, its exactly what I am out living in when I am not distracted by these kinds of battle ground threads...I think I have burned a few hundred calories over this one.
    Hey dan does your blog/forum support tapatalk app? Or forumrunner? Those are the only two ways I access forums.
    ~Stone | "...of course, that's just my opinion. I could be wrong." ~Dennis Miller

  4. #64
    Ken Nadvornick's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2005
    Location
    Monroe, WA, USA
    Shooter
    Multi Format
    Posts
    3,165
    Images
    48
    Hey Stone, I gotta' ask. Do you ever sleep?

    We stragglers out here on the West Coast usually close out the day (or evening) on APUG. Guys like 'MattKing' up north of me over the border in BC, 'anakin' down south of me in Oregon, 'akphotog' waaay up god-only-knows-where in Alaska trying to not get eaten by Grizzly bears.

    After us the prime time APUG window moves out over the vast limitless reaches of the Pacific Ocean. Hawaii's out there somewhere about 6-7 hours of flight time from the mainland. But activity doesn't really pick up again for several hours until Oz finally logs in over the dateline for their evenings.

    But you? You're always around here late at night on West Coast time. That's the middle of the night or early morning on the East Coast.

    Man, don't you ever sleep?



    Ken
    Last edited by Ken Nadvornick; 11-09-2013 at 12:59 AM. Click to view previous post history.
    "They are the proof that something was there and no longer is. Like a stain. And the stillness of them is boggling. You can turn away but when you come back they’ll still be there looking at you."

    — Diane Arbus, March 15, 1971, in response to a request for a brief statement about photographs

  5. #65
    analoguey's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2013
    Location
    Bangalore, India
    Shooter
    Multi Format
    Posts
    519
    Images
    2

    You of all people should understand that criticism is FAR more valuable to growth than compliments. If the various post-mortem business analyses I've read are even moderately correct, stifled alternative points of view from within contributed mightily to EK's eventual downfall. No one wanted to listen to those who warned of approaching problems. I've also heard that same thing right here from various ex-EK employees.

    If I show ten people one of my dorky amateur photos and nine of them tell me I'm a genius, those nine will each get a sincere smile and thank you in return. But the tenth person who called me a talentless idiot? THAT person will get as many hours of my undivided attention as he needs to explain to me exactly why he feels that way. And when he finishes the thank you he gets from me will be far, far more meaningful, because his criticism was far, far more valuable to my future growth.



    Remember, if all one ever does is succeed, one will never grow. It takes failure to stake out the areas requiring improvement. Without failure, and recognition of it, your limits will never be known to you. And without knowing those limits, it's impossible to formulate a plan to exceed them.

    Ken

    Ignoring the EK bit above, I am curious why you think it's only criticism that will help one grow?
    In the example of the 9 vs 1 you give, you assume that someone who calls you an idiot (quoting above) is not one and actually has something useful to answer.

    I'm all for seeing multiple points of view, and it *seems* to me that you view only saying -ves gets things moving - I am not so sure that's true.
    If you ignore the positives or think they cant tell you anything useful, then youre stuck with possibly a very very narrow stretch of the feedback loop.



    Sent from my LT26i using Tapatalk

  6. #66
    StoneNYC's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2012
    Location
    Connecticut, USA
    Shooter
    8x10 Format
    Posts
    7,213
    Images
    225
    Quote Originally Posted by Ken Nadvornick View Post
    Hey Stone, I gotta' ask. Do you ever sleep?

    We stragglers out here on the West Coast usually close out the day (or evening) on APUG. Guys like 'MattKing' up north of me over the border in BC, 'anakin' down south of me in Oregon, 'akphotog' waaay up god-only-knows-where in Alaska trying to not get eaten by Grizzly bears.

    After us the prime time APUG window moves out over the vast limitless reaches of the Pacific Ocean. Hawaii's out there somewhere about 6-7 hours of flight time from the mainland. But activity doesn't really pick up again for several hours until Oz finally logs in over the dateline for their evenings.

    But you? You're always around here late at night on West Coast time. That's the middle of the night or early morning on the East Coast.

    Man, don't you ever sleep?



    Ken
    Haha never, My life is devoted to APUG

    In all seriousness in the movie industry there are times when the scene is happening and you're not really working and have a lot of time to preoccupy yourself. So I read and learn about film and post here.

    The hours are sporadic so sometimes I'm up early posting, but I'm also a night owl so I'm up late too.

    Also my work days are usually 12-15 hours plus 2 hours drive into NY and another 2 hours to drive home in rush hour (10mph) traffic. So I have a LOT of time to be on here...

    The only time I'm not on is when I'm shooting, having "relations", sleeping, or actually working at work. Lol
    ~Stone | "...of course, that's just my opinion. I could be wrong." ~Dennis Miller

  7. #67
    Ken Nadvornick's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2005
    Location
    Monroe, WA, USA
    Shooter
    Multi Format
    Posts
    3,165
    Images
    48
    Quote Originally Posted by analoguey View Post
    Ignoring the EK bit above, I am curious why you think it's only criticism that will help one grow?
    Because of basic human nature.

    Mothers teach their children, "If you don't have something nice to say, then don't say anything at all." And even if Mom didn't teach it, the norms of social interaction usually dictate it. Although it's always polite, a compliment may or may not be honest. But a criticism is rarely dishonest. People who like the effort have no real incentive to lie to you by telling you they dislike it. What would be the point?

    Most often compliments tell you what you want to hear. That's the echo chamber effect. But criticisms tell you what you need to hear. And the person who levels the criticism goes out on a limb by doing so. That's why they deserve a sincere thank you for the chance they took. Without them, you would have never known what might need to be improved. You would have only been told what didn't.

    Ken
    "They are the proof that something was there and no longer is. Like a stain. And the stillness of them is boggling. You can turn away but when you come back they’ll still be there looking at you."

    — Diane Arbus, March 15, 1971, in response to a request for a brief statement about photographs

  8. #68
    analoguey's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2013
    Location
    Bangalore, India
    Shooter
    Multi Format
    Posts
    519
    Images
    2
    I agree in parts about social norms, but discounting every positive review is hardly productive - many would definitely have more to say than just a 'nice one' - I guess the time could be spent gathering feedback from them as well. After all, you wanna know what works too!

    Sent from my LT26i using Tapatalk

  9. #69
    StoneNYC's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2012
    Location
    Connecticut, USA
    Shooter
    8x10 Format
    Posts
    7,213
    Images
    225
    I think constructive criticism is useful, just not bitter criticism.
    ~Stone | "...of course, that's just my opinion. I could be wrong." ~Dennis Miller

  10. #70

    Join Date
    Nov 2005
    Location
    San Clemente, California
    Shooter
    Multi Format
    Posts
    1,074
    Apparently Dan feels he's picked up enough new flat spots on his head for now and has stopped banging it against a wall. For his sake, I applaud that decision.

    Quote Originally Posted by StoneNYC View Post
    ...2 hours drive into NY and another 2 hours to drive home in rush hour (10mph) traffic. So I have a LOT of time to be on here...
    My positive contribution is to strongly admonish you against ever "being on here" or in any other way interacting with your phone / electronic device while driving. The potential for death and destruction (yours and others') from distraction is unbelievably high. It's just not worth the risk.



 

APUG PARTNERS EQUALLY FUNDING OUR COMMUNITY:



Contact Us  |  Support Us!  |  Advertise  |  Site Terms  |  Archive  —   Search  |  Mobile Device Access  |  RSS  |  Facebook  |  Linkedin