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  1. #51
    dr5chrome's Avatar
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    hmmm - what CGW said.

    Mick - There are plenty of facts to prove these numbers, and this is likely conservative. Keep in mind the California alone has a higher population than your entire country. for that matter, your country and Germany combined.

    I wont get into the logistics of why certain markets see higher films volumes than others. Its really been confusing.

    Film companies are barley hanging on themselves, but they are doing little to help themselves. Simple low cost things they cold do to increase film sales - they do not do. A perfect example is 'us': Our unique, one of a kind process, that creates B&W chromes from most all B&W films, is not supported by 1 of the film manufactures. ILFORD does not even recommend HP5 for use as a positive, yet it is our highest volume film after 14yrs.. how silly a business move is that? All it will do for ILFORD is sell more film for them.

    This is the problem with the industry today. The only old-school company we see left is FREESTYLE. They freely give support to photo related industry - even if its free. This mentality just doesn't exist anymore.

    The facts remain that as long as the media spews out that cell-phone images are photographic art, gadget driven countries [US, Japan, China, ETc..] will accept the images, and more labs will close.

    If the masses do not accept the divide of 'photography' and 'digital imaging', more and more labs will close.

    dw




    Quote Originally Posted by Mick Fagan View Post
    Doctorfivechrome, I understand it to be an increase in their film volume over the previous year.

    Regarding dollar value, which dollar are you talking about? There are quite a few and some of them are doing quite well at the moment.

    Perhaps the North American market, which appears to be in free fall from where I sit at the moment, is reflected in your comments.

    I'm interested in your comment about there being over 300 labs closed in North America last year. Is there some source to reference this statement?

    Whilst many labs have been closing in my country (Australia), there are some opening up, including one not too far from me and another in my sister's country town. This appears to be going against all trends and market statements I know about my own country, but it is happening as I can see it with my own two eyes.

    Australia is a small world, I wouldn't under any stretch of the imagination, suggest that Germany is a little world.

    Effectively, Germany with it's economy, technology, manufacturing ability and capacity, is the powerhouse of Europe. Interestingly, Germany is currently being lead by a Doctor of Physics, which is a nice change from where most politicians seem to come from.

    Mick.

  2. #52

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    if lomo, helga, diana, zorki sputnik kievin and the rest of them want to help,
    i am not sure why this is thought to be a bad thing ... seeing the golden age of silver halide is on the way out

    as a Qtip the the tribe used to say ... push it along
    Last edited by jnanian; 06-09-2011 at 07:54 PM. Click to view previous post history.

  3. #53
    michaelbsc's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by jnanian
    if lomo, helga, diana, zorki sputnik kievin and the rest of them want to help,
    i am not sure why this is thought to be a bad thing ... seeing the golden age of silver halide is on the way out

    as a Qtip the the tribe used to say ... push it along
    I don't believe anyone perceives the Lomo/Holga movement to be "bad" for film. It is just completely inadequate to keep film alive worldwide. The toy camera market is so small compared to the old "Mom and Dad taking pictures of little Susie" market that it is statistically insignificant. So are we. APUG has bazillions of registered users, but maybe 300 regular contributors.
    Michael Batchelor
    Industrial Informatics, Inc.
    www.industrialinformatics.com

    The camera catches light. The photographer catches life.

  4. #54

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    Quote Originally Posted by dr5chrome View Post
    ....

    And while you seem to be stuck in some sort of time-warp there in Germany, World-wide labs are still closing left and right. I don't believe you quite understand what is happening outside of your little world.
    ....
    What an arrogant attitude concerning Germany and the Europeans.
    And that from someone who is consciously doing misleading advertising on his website for years. And don't know what is going on in other countries.

    Mr. Wood, on your website you are telling your customers that you are "the only quality processing, worldwide, for the remaining Sala film".
    That is completely untrue.
    And you know that.

    There are at least nine labs worldwide doing quality reversal processing of Scala film. Five of theses labs are in the country you have bashed, Germany.
    I have lived in several European countries and I know some of these labs, because I have been their customer.

    Some weeks ago on photo.net some Europeans informed you about the facts and your misleading marketing. They even gave you the names and internet adresses of the other Scala labs.
    Your reaction was quite absurd.
    You said you didn't know of all these other labs.
    That proves that you didn't know your own market.
    You even didn't know your direct competitors.

    Sorry, but with your lack of market knowledge you are the last who have the right to critizise others.

    Completely ridiculous was your excuse on photo.net:
    First you have said you didn't know the other worldwide Scala labs.
    Then you have said, you are the only "quality" lab for Scala, that you are better then the others.
    That can't be logic at all:
    When you don't know the other labs, you can't have tested them.
    And because you have not tested them, it is impossible to judge their quality (I have experience with some of them and have got excellent quality).

    We as photographers cannot trust a guy who is using such misleading and questionable marketing.

  5. #55

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    Quote Originally Posted by dr5chrome View Post
    Mick - There are plenty of facts to prove these numbers,
    No excuses, give us the sources.

    Quote Originally Posted by dr5chrome View Post
    . Keep in mind the California alone has a higher population than your entire country. for that matter, your country and Germany combined.
    That is complete nonsense!
    California has about 37 million inhabitants.
    Australia about 22 million.
    And Germany alone has 81 Million inhabitants! (source: wikipedia.de)

    Another evidence that you don't know the facts about other countries and markets.
    We photographers can not trust someone who is unable to do at least the most little, essential steps of market research.

    This German market, which is so bashed by you, is by far the biggest and strongest in Europe.
    There are even five labs in Germany doing Scala reversal processing. And only one in the US, you.
    With so much more labs in Germany for BW reversal it looks like the market there is bigger for that speciality than your home market.


    Quote Originally Posted by dr5chrome View Post
    Film companies are barley hanging on themselves, but they are doing little to help themselves. Simple low cost things they cold do to increase film sales - they do not do. A perfect example is 'us': Our unique, one of a kind process, that creates B&W chromes from most all B&W films, is not supported by 1 of the film manufactures. ILFORD does not even recommend HP5 for use as a positive, yet it is our highest volume film after 14yrs.. how silly a business move is that? All it will do for ILFORD is sell more film for them.
    dw
    They are not silly, they are clever.
    They are Europeans. They know about the all the BW reversal / Scala labs in Europe.
    And they know about your misleading marketing on your website.
    They know that it would damage their reputation if they do a partnership with a company known for questionable marketing methods.

  6. #56

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    Quote Originally Posted by michaelbsc View Post
    I don't believe anyone perceives the Lomo/Holga movement to be "bad" for film. It is just completely inadequate to keep film alive worldwide. The toy camera market is so small compared to the old "Mom and Dad taking pictures of little Susie" market that it is statistically insignificant.
    Michael, the company that produces the Holga (more precise, the founder of the company, Mr Lee) said in an interview in 2009 that the worldwide community of toy camera users is about 1 million, and is very strongly growing. At that time film consumption of this group was 5- 7 % of the whole market. That is statistically significant. And, due to the Lomographic Society International, film sales in this segment have growth rates of 50 - 100% per year.
    By the way, after the recent job cut of another 58 employees at Ilford (they had to cut 100 jobs in 2009/2010 if I remember right a former statement of Simon Galley), now the Lomo company is bigger than Ilford (more than 300 people working for them, published in a newspaper report about the company).

  7. #57
    Ian David's Avatar
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    Gosh these sorts of threads quickly become tedious...
    Positive press for film photography has got to be a good thing.
    It may be that film will still ultimately struggle and die, or it may be that some unforeseen resurgence will occur. It may be that film sales will simply stabilise and persist as a healthy niche. But the truth is that none of the armchair sages here at APUG have any idea what will ultimately happen.
    We should enjoy any positive news that comes out of companies like Harman, and in the meantime just keep on wasting as much film as we can afford.

    Ian

  8. #58
    markbarendt's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by michaelbsc View Post
    I don't believe anyone perceives the Lomo/Holga movement to be "bad" for film. It is just completely inadequate to keep film alive worldwide. The toy camera market is so small compared to the old "Mom and Dad taking pictures of little Susie" market that it is statistically insignificant. So are we. APUG has bazillions of registered users, but maybe 300 regular contributors.
    Last Sunday our local photography club had a field trip. We rode the D&SNG RR, it was a "themed" excursion centered around Native Americans and their culture.

    Dancers in full formal dance regalia performed and told us their stories, we got to take pictures.

    There was the usual plethora of digi-snappers plus two of us film shooters. I had the biggest camera for the day, my RB. It was quite the conversation starter.

    When I carry around my RB it always draws attention from anyone interested in photography, when I pull off the back and show people the size of the negative they are always amazed.

    The camera opens the door to talking about film and to teaching.

    I got to teach people about exposure and even muddled through the menus to set exposure on some cheap digi's. That is a truly frustrating experience for their users, especially so when I show them how easy and fast it is with the RB and an incident meter.

    My Holga also starts conversations, for different reasons. I get a kick out of handing it to someone over 30, they are typically dismissive until they see the fun stuff it can produce.

    People like taking pictures, cheap digital cameras are truly frustrating "toys" because they screw up so often and they are so hard to control. Holgas and RBs and old 35mm SLRs solve those problems.

    No film is not a magic bullet but next Thursday I am taking some prints from my train ride. There is some really fun stuff including some portraits of a few of the people who I got to tutor.

    The point I want to make here is that the Lomo crowd and the APUG "300" are significant, we do wag the dog a bit.

    Digital shooting is all the rage but it has real problems, complexity and cost being paramount.

    I'm not suggesting we can recreate or get back to film's glory days, but there is a real opportunity to create a new, sustainable normal, where Ilford and Kodak and Fuji films and mail-order labs can "earn their keep".
    Mark Barendt, Beaverton, OR

    "We do not see things the way they are. We see things the way we are." Anaïs Nin

  9. #59

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    SNIP

    Quote Originally Posted by Film-Niko View Post
    They are not silly, they are clever.
    i don't think so ...

    it doesn't matter where the film is made
    there is very little, if any advertising to the general public ..
    i don't find that clever ... ( and if you ask me, it is one of the reasons for film's decline )

    one of the reasons many people are here on apug, is because
    they are tired of the flame-wars and the harshness found on other websites ( like pnet ) ...
    i am sure dr5 knows his market very well, he has been around for a long time,
    and he IS pretty much the only place to send film to chromify it ...

    can you keep your personal attacks out of this thread ??

    Quote Originally Posted by michaelbsc View Post
    I don't believe anyone perceives the Lomo/Holga movement to be "bad" for film. It is just completely inadequate to keep film alive worldwide. The toy camera market is so small compared to the old "Mom and Dad taking pictures of little Susie" market that it is statistically insignificant. So are we. APUG has bazillions of registered users, but maybe 300 regular contributors.
    i was under the impression people ( as they do in many lomo-threads )
    were badmouthing lomo &C and dismissing them altogether
    as a waste of thought ... and an expensive waste of money that only
    "posers" would buy as a "fashion accessory" ...

    i agree ... the toy camera market isn't large enough, in the grand scheme of things ...

  10. #60
    Tony Egan's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ian David View Post
    Gosh these sorts of threads quickly become tedious...
    Positive press for film photography has got to be a good thing.
    Ian
    Yes, we'll all be rooned said Hanrahan...

    Praise every hipster you see with a lomo. Urge them and their friends to buy 3 or 4 more dianas and shoot as much film as they can. Instead of die-hipster-die it should be shoot-hipster-shoot.
    http://www.tonyeganphotography.com/index.html
    "Those are my principles, and if you don't like them... well, I have others." Groucho Marx



 

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