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  1. #21
    Bob Carnie's Avatar
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    This conversation reminds me of a few threads a couple of years back about Ciba..

    I was one of the last purchasers of a totally dedicated Ciba machine in the mid to late 90's. There were about 50 of them made, I certainly tried to make a go of it.
    At the time I was making various contrast and colour control masks for transparancies and doing only enlarger work.
    My client base at that time was indeed mostly part timers shooting 35mm slides. Rocks Trees, Flowers....

    My price to mask and control contrasts were not being purchased as being too expensive, then three grades of contrast paper were available and to hell with the mask and meet the expectations. Ciba management did no marketing, their chain of distribution was pitiful, we then purchased a Lambda and for a time we were making hay again, but the price of material and shipping and duties and improper containers from Ciba became too much to handle. I threw out a perfectly good machine with 20 years left on it.....
    During these threads I remember being the messenger of doom and gloom about Ciba,,, I got slammed then and I remember those sticking their heads in the sand about its future... three years latter try to purchase fresh Ciba kits and materials....

    The market place is fickle, the common denominator is price it seems.

    For clarification, I do not miss the old good days, in fact my company has completely retrofitted itself so to speak, we have brought on young blood with fresh ideas and one benefit is I am in the darkroom more and shooting more film for my projects than I ever did before.
    I hope C41 and E6 products do not go away and I hope those reading my posts understand I am fully committed to film and fiber prints... but the gate has been open for a very long time on colour and the materials needed for film camera may ,,,,, may not make it past five years... today I am working on separating film to make Tri colour Carbons by hand , but my youngest staff members are capturing with 5d's and making inkjet.
    I just can't sit on this forum and not tell it like I see it, even if it rubs individuals the wrong way.

    The day will come where I need to purchase the large Ilford Warmtone order, it will not be due to fiber paper going away, quite the opposite as I think there is enough of a market to sustain yearly paper runs, hopefully from various manufactures.
    My reasoning will be price ,,, there will be a tipping point for me and my clients where we will consider long term safe storage of paper purchased at price x in year x
    or just keep on paying the predictable price increased Harmon/Others will need to continue supplying us paper on a ongoing basis.

    This paper purchase should keep me busy on many museum and gallery projects that are slated as well as private commissions.
    I probably looking at my health and age consider about 15-20 years of demanding printing for my clients who have supported me over the last 20 years since I opened Silver Shack. Beyond that this old dinasour will just be happy if he could crank out one print a day and I hope that I will be able to do that.


    Back to Ciba...... Who do you all think is still using the material on a regular basis and will do so for a few more years.......... any takers......



    Jeff Wall- hmmm

    I suspect he made the single most largest purchase of Cibachrome trans material as recently as two years ago.... I know that when I was printing cibas, he was the big buyer on certain years and looking at his background I think he has enough boxes of frozen paper to continue on with his work.... maybe he contacted PE to get the chemical mixtures as well.
    I am only guessing this but I hope he is .

  2. #22
    Bob Carnie's Avatar
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    BTW

    A conversation with PE and others here on how safe it is to store colour film and chemicals would be a great thread to get going... I would stock pile C41 and Colour Film, RA 4 Chemistry and Colour RA4 paper, if I felt that the materials could handle the cold storage. This would be of great interest to me and hopefully to others wanting to continue making colour prints.

    My background , does not make me competent to discuss this properly but we do have some bright emulsion and chemistry experts here on APUG.

  3. #23
    Rudeofus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bob Carnie View Post
    This conversation reminds me of a few threads a couple of years back about Ciba..

    I was one of the last purchasers of a totally dedicated Ciba machine in the mid to late 90's. There were about 50 of them made, I certainly tried to make a go of it.
    At the time I was making various contrast and colour control masks for transparancies and doing only enlarger work.
    My client base at that time was indeed mostly part timers shooting 35mm slides. Rocks Trees, Flowers....
    Cibachrome is a prime time example how the photographic industry actively killed analog. A number of factors contributed to its demise:
    • Ilford Switzerland. Enough said, no point in spending extra words on this miserable failure of a company.
    • Complete lack of marketing for this process. I've been to all kinds of pro labs but never saw an Ilfochrome print until I made one myself.
    • Forum BS: There were countless postings claiming that for doing Ilfochrome at least a PhD in process chemistry is required. Ilfochrome without contrast masks: phhhh! Only the very best is barely good enough and that only in a few lucky cases. If any imbecile amateur ever got a P3/P30 kit, he'll be lucky to survive its first application but never get discernible results. And normal dark room equipment will never work for Ilfochrome, only a few top secret contraptions made by "the experts" have a chance to make Ilfochrome work at all.


    Result: complete lack of interest until the process died.

    Surprise: none.

    Quote Originally Posted by Bob Carnie View Post
    For clarification, I do not miss the old good days, in fact my company has completely retrofitted itself so to speak, we have brought on young blood with fresh ideas and one benefit is I am in the darkroom more and shooting more film for my projects than I ever did before.
    I hope C41 and E6 products do not go away and I hope those reading my posts understand I am fully committed to film and fiber prints... but the gate has been open for a very long time on colour and the materials needed for film camera may ,,,,, may not make it past five years... today I am working on separating film to make Tri colour Carbons by hand , but my youngest staff members are capturing with 5d's and making inkjet.
    I just can't sit on this forum and not tell it like I see it, even if it rubs individuals the wrong way.
    Unlike some folks on APUG I was never rubbed the wrong way by people writing from their own experience or who post less than optimistic forecasts about certain photographic processes. All I did was point out that the failure of Ilfochrome and E6 pro labs can not be exclusively blamed on the digital juggernaut. It was the digital juggernaut combined with complete inability and/or unwillingness of the affected parties to deal with the new situation and a changed market in exactly these areas.

    Think of the following, I've read this somewhere here: Cars have completely replaced horses as a means of transportation in the last 100 years. Yet, there are more horses in California right now than there were 100 years ago.
    Trying to be the best of whatever I am, even if what I am is no good.

  4. #24
    CGW
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rudeofus View Post
    Cibachrome is a prime time example how the photographic industry actively killed analog. A number of factors contributed to its demise:
    • Ilford Switzerland. Enough said, no point in spending extra words on this miserable failure of a company.
    • Complete lack of marketing for this process. I've been to all kinds of pro labs but never saw an Ilfochrome print until I made one myself.
    • Forum BS: There were countless postings claiming that for doing Ilfochrome at least a PhD in process chemistry is required. Ilfochrome without contrast masks: phhhh! Only the very best is barely good enough and that only in a few lucky cases. If any imbecile amateur ever got a P3/P30 kit, he'll be lucky to survive its first application but never get discernible results. And normal dark room equipment will never work for Ilfochrome, only a few top secret contraptions made by "the experts" have a chance to make Ilfochrome work at all.


    Result: complete lack of interest until the process died.

    Surprise: none.


    Unlike some folks on APUG I was never rubbed the wrong way by people writing from their own experience or who post less than optimistic forecasts about certain photographic processes. All I did was point out that the failure of Ilfochrome and E6 pro labs can not be exclusively blamed on the digital juggernaut. It was the digital juggernaut combined with complete inability and/or unwillingness of the affected parties to deal with the new situation and a changed market in exactly these areas.

    Think of the following, I've read this somewhere here: Cars have completely replaced horses as a means of transportation in the last 100 years. Yet, there are more horses in California right now than there were 100 years ago.
    This degree of sarcasm and disingenuity doesn't further your arguments. This has to be a prime example:

    Unlike some folks on APUG I was never rubbed the wrong way by people writing from their own experience or who post less than optimistic forecasts about certain photographic processes.

    I never saw this spirit in evidence in any of your recent exchanges with Aristophanes and others in threads on Kodak's torment, just full throttle vituperation and bile.

    BTW, "declining demand" is incontrovertible--sad, granted, but true nonetheless. PlusX sales/use dwarfed B&W off brands in N. America. Demand for b&w materials tanked and what's left is barely visible(recall that Kodak's decision to end B&W paper production likely wasn't the result of spite). Home E6 processing? C'mon. Again, Kodak killed their small batch kit, too. Why?

    I saw dozens of dedicated, often longtime, film shooters ditch analog beginning a decade ago for matters of cost. Heavy E6 amateur users rationalized the switch in cost terms--that's all I ever heard. Pros who shot fashion/editorial/PJ moved to digital workflow instep with client and publication needs.

  5. #25

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    Quote Originally Posted by Bob Carnie View Post
    Back to Ciba...... Who do you all think is still using the material on a regular basis and will do so for a few more years.......... any takers......
    Frank Green at the Lab Ciba has, he also has several artists who have done like I have and invested in his paper purchase to the tune of thousands. I had wanted to print a big show from my Kodachrome slides, but did not have the cash outlay to do it right away. So now I am forced to sell crap and pony up because I want at least *some* of the show to be printed on the real deal. Word also has it that there is a European man who is a devout analog supporter who is possibly going to offer as much as a million U.S. to Ilford to supply him material, for who or what, I do not know.

    Quote Originally Posted by Bob Carnie View Post
    The day will come where I need to purchase the large Ilford Warmtone order, it will not be due to fiber paper going away, quite the opposite as I think there is enough of a market to sustain yearly paper runs, hopefully from various manufactures.
    My reasoning will be price ,,, there will be a tipping point for me and my clients where we will consider long term safe storage of paper purchased at price x in year x
    or just keep on paying the predictable price increased Harmon/Others will need to continue supplying us paper on a ongoing basis.
    In terms of buying large stocks of Ilford paper, this is exactly my thinking too, build up a stock before sharp price increases and then rotate stock and keep contributing to the company's bottom line on a semi-annual basis. One of my clients is a couple who owns a very successful restaurant group, I have three major shoots coming up that I would normally be paid nicely for. But in this case, I am looking at getting trade in the form of walk in freezer space for paper...the stuff is big and needs that kind of room.

    If you are a hobby shooter like most, make sound choices in what you use, and use enough of it, contribute to the bottom line on any product you want to see stay afloat and spread the word, get other people to use it.

    If you are a pro, you most likely don't need to be told to streamline your long term goals in terms of what products you want to use and then make large initial investments in those products to cover your rear and then simply buy new stock as needed as frequently as you can to contribute to the same bottom line the hobby shooter does.

    I have no idea what is to happen, but I do know this, if you thought 2000-2010 was a bad decade for film and related products and services, you ain't seen nothing yet. Between the poor outlook on the global "Freeconomy" and the digi-machine, it's going to get ugly out there...so plan accordingly.

  6. #26
    Rudeofus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by CGW View Post
    Unlike some folks on APUG I was never rubbed the wrong way by people writing from their own experience or who post less than optimistic forecasts about certain photographic processes.

    I never saw this spirit in evidence in any of your recent exchanges with Aristophanes and others in threads on Kodak's torment, just full throttle vituperation and bile.
    It may be noteworthy that Aristophanes and I had a quite civilized exchange which we continued via PM, again, in a civilized and friendly fashion. I am interested in opinions which differ from mine but don't accept them at face value when I think they are incorrect and/or based on wrong assumptions. It would be highly unfair for me towards Aristophanes to further comment on his postings as he is no longer part of APUG. Please note that I was neither part nor factor in Aristophanes' recent decision to leave APUG.
    Quote Originally Posted by CGW View Post
    BTW, "declining demand" is incontrovertible--sad, granted, but true nonetheless. PlusX sales/use dwarfed B&W off brands in N. America. Demand for b&w materials tanked and what's left is barely visible(recall that Kodak's decision to end B&W paper production likely wasn't the result of spite). Home E6 processing? C'mon. Again, Kodak killed their small batch kit, too. Why?
    Kodak probably killed their kit because despite all the APUG fury against BLIX it appears that most home amateurs didn't want to put up with 6+ bathes. Eat that, pro labs! You still seem to get the Arista Kit in N. America.

    I did never deny the decline in demand for analog materials during the last decade. What I did try to point out, though, is that some product lines were better at adapting to that decline than others, and that pro labs appear to me as especially unfit to meet the demands and hit the wallets of today's analog shooters, at least here in my home town.
    Trying to be the best of whatever I am, even if what I am is no good.

  7. #27
    CGW
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rudeofus View Post
    It may be noteworthy that Aristophanes and I had a quite civilized exchange which we continued via PM, again, in a civilized and friendly fashion. I am interested in opinions which differ from mine but don't accept them at face value when I think they are incorrect and/or based on wrong assumptions. It would be highly unfair for me towards Aristophanes to further comment on his postings as he is no longer part of APUG. Please note that I was neither part nor factor in Aristophanes' recent decision to leave APUG.

    Kodak probably killed their kit because despite all the APUG fury against BLIX it appears that most home amateurs didn't want to put up with 6+ bathes. Eat that, pro labs! You still seem to get the Arista Kit in N. America.

    I did never deny the decline in demand for analog materials during the last decade. What I did try to point out, though, is that some product lines were better at adapting to that decline than others, and that pro labs appear to me as especially unfit to meet the demands and hit the wallets of today's analog shooters, at least here in my home town.
    Anyone curious can reread your contributions to those threads and judge for themselves. Unfortunately, Aristophanes posts are gone except for those quoted in your responses, though that's sufficient. Too bad you didn't convey the civility in public you supposedly did privately. My comments stand.

  8. #28
    clayne's Avatar
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    That clown left after blowing his negative load of "reality" on the forum? Typical and completely expected. His schtick was obvious from day one.
    Stop worrying about grain, resolution, sharpness, and everything else that doesn't have a damn thing to do with substance.

    http://www.flickr.com/kediwah

  9. #29

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    Quote Originally Posted by CGW View Post
    Anyone curious can reread your contributions to those threads and judge for themselves. Unfortunately, Aristophanes posts are gone except for those quoted in your responses, though that's sufficient. Too bad you didn't convey the civility in public you supposedly did privately. My comments stand.
    Wow, I did not know he left, I too had a reasonable discourse with him a few weeks ago, chose to just let anything that initially ticked me off to later roll on down the aisle. Did he delete his own posts? It's his choice if he did, but if someone else did, that is SUPER lame....

  10. #30
    clayne's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by PKM-25 View Post
    Wow, I did not know he left, I too had a reasonable discourse with him a few weeks ago, chose to just let anything that initially ticked me off to later roll on down the aisle. Did he delete his own posts? It's his choice if he did, but if someone else did, that is SUPER lame....
    I highly doubt that one of the admins deleted all of his posts. That just doesn't strike me as their style one bit.

    However, on the flip-side, I highly do NOT doubt he went and deleted all of his own posts as some measure of "look at me." That DOES strike me as his style quite a bit.

    As yourself what seems more likely.
    Stop worrying about grain, resolution, sharpness, and everything else that doesn't have a damn thing to do with substance.

    http://www.flickr.com/kediwah

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