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  1. #11
    Photo Engineer's Avatar
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    No acid will kill CD3 or CD4 for that matter.

    The nature and effectiveness of the stop bath depends on the developer and the emulsion(s) being processed. Carryover of developing agent into a bleach is a very very bad thing. We used a good wash before the bleach and we also used a clearing bath of Sulfite to clean up the CD4 or CD3. It apparently is not needed here. At least not with Sulfuric Acid.

    PE

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    Interesting....I will pay more attention to the wash cycle between dev and bleach. I don't have a problem with C-41/CD4; there I am using a Sprint Systems stop bath which is really for b&w but I think is a buffered acetic acid (maybe buffered with sodium sulfite, I don't remember).

    I have mixed a batch of ECN-2 developer with calgon and benzotriazole, if I have a moment tomorrow I'll shoot a test roll and develop and see what happens.

  3. #13

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    I have shot a roll of Fuji Eterna Vivid 500T and will develop it in my test soup tomorrow.

    But one thing is bugging me. The official formula calls for 4g CD-3 per liter. That just looks low to me, comparing with C-41 which uses CD-4 at about 5.2g/L. The ECN-2 replenishment version, however, calls for 5.2g/L CD-3 which just sounds more right to me. I may increase the CD-3 in my test batch a little, to see what happens. The ECN-2 "fresh tank" version is presumably designed for large tank, roller transport processors rather than my little developing tank. I'm guessing that my greenish bias could be a result of not enough developing agent?

  4. #14
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    Color developing agents can be used at lower concentration than B&W developing agents. They are effective in the range of 2 - 10 g/l and 10 g/l is on the very very high side.

    If you got your figure from an EK publication (as we discussed earlier) then it should be correct. Higher levels will give higher contrast, shorter latitude and more fog. IDK what your green bias was due to, but I assume that you checked the pH, right?

    PE

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    I checked the pH, but only crudely, with a test strip. It was North of 10 and south of 11.

    I'll keep the CD-3 at 4g/L as published and see what happens. I guess that otherwise, I'll have way too many variables - as I already have now, with Calgon and benzotriazole! Could be an interesting experiment. I will probably develop the negs tomorrow and scan tomorrow evening.

  6. #16

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    Well test 1 turned out to be a failure. I used 2g/L of sodium hexametaphosphate instead of Kodak anti-cal 4, and 500mg/L of benzotriazole instead of AF-2000. I think it is the latter that let me down - there was hardly an image on the film, it was so pale. Even the orange mask seemed oddly pale. I will try again, with maybe 50mg/L benzotriazole. If that doesn't so it, I will have to reach out some more and ask what could be causing the red layer of the film to be under-developing (and possibly the blue layer also, as the cast is greenish). I am still tempted to up the amount of CD-3 to the amount used in the dev replenisher (5.2g instead of 4g).

    PE, you asked if I checked the pH of the developer. What effect does pH have on color cast? If pH is too low or too high, what happens to color balance? Maybe I should get a pH meter for greater accuracy as right now I only have test strips.

  7. #17
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    Yes, 10 - 50 mg/l is more normal.

    The pH has a profound effect on contrast, fog and speed. They all usually go up with pH.

    PE

  8. #18

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    OK well I guess I really overdid the benzotriazole! I'll shoot another test roll tomorrow and develop it in the next day or two. Many thanks for all your advice, PE!

    I may sneak in a little extra CD-3 because even the small amount of benzotriazole is likely to reduce speed a little.

  9. #19
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    Quote Originally Posted by Photo Engineer View Post
    What do you mean "we"?

    Anyhow, Sulfuric Acid would not have been used if Acetic Acid was acceptable. There is some benefit from Sulfuric Acid, I am sure, but since the MP product team was separate from the Pro and Consumer projects, I never interacted with them and thus don't know.

    PE
    I was assumed this to be the handling, usage, and cost of bulk sulphuric acid over acetic acid. You also said Benzotriazole shouldn't be used in a colour developer solution previously.


    Quote Originally Posted by newcan1 View Post
    Interesting -- you know, the rinse after my acetic stop bath did look a bit pink, almost like there was still some CD-3 in there. Maybe acetic acid just doesn't kill it, but then RA4 stop bath is acetic, isn't it? Carry of developing agent into the ferricyanide bleach might cause a greenish cast, n'est-ce pas?

    I will dig out my sulfuric acid and maybe do a test film tomorrow.
    This is normal.


    Quote Originally Posted by newcan1 View Post
    I have shot a roll of Fuji Eterna Vivid 500T and will develop it in my test soup tomorrow.

    But one thing is bugging me. The official formula calls for 4g CD-3 per liter. That just looks low to me, comparing with C-41 which uses CD-4 at about 5.2g/L. The ECN-2 replenishment version, however, calls for 5.2g/L CD-3 which just sounds more right to me. I may increase the CD-3 in my test batch a little, to see what happens. The ECN-2 "fresh tank" version is presumably designed for large tank, roller transport processors rather than my little developing tank. I'm guessing that my greenish bias could be a result of not enough developing agent?

    The higher amount is for replenishment, replenisher is less diluted typically than seasoned solution, seasoned solution loses the developer agent and sulphite and etc over usage, you wouldn't just add tank solution strength.. needs to be a bit stronger to average it back out to tank solution/seasoned strength.

    Also in the ECN-2 formula, there are discrepancies in amounts to account for losses due to aeration and mixing of the CD-3 and sulphite.


    The amount you are supposed to mix up is 5.5g/L for replenisher and 4.0g/L for tank solution, the 5.2g/L figure is what you typically should get after mixing and aeration losses.


    Developer carryover into a sulphuric acid stop bath generates sulphur dioxide gas, so be careful about that.
    Last edited by Athiril; 03-28-2012 at 01:06 AM. Click to view previous post history.

  10. #20

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    Hi all - thanks for the comments.

    I tried again, this time with 5.2g/L CD-3, 28g/L (if I remember correctly) Sodium carbonate (ie a little higher than the published formula), and benzotriazole at 20mg/L. That stuff is really powerful, and in my next test I will reduce it further to maybe 5mg/L. Everything else was per the published formula (except 2g/L Calgon instead of anti-cal 4).

    I still have a bit of a cast. Of the images below, "eterna-test2-1.jpg" is a straight, unmanipulated scan showing a slightly greenish cast. The 2-1aa file is color corrected as closely as I can get to the actual subject. For this, on Corel Photo Paint, I added 12 units of blue; nothing else. The third image, 2-1bb, has some contrast enhancement to punch it up a bit.

    So the bottom line is...... test 2 needed a little bump in blue to get a correct output.

    Any suggestions for how to improve the development of the blue layer? I know I have a lot of variables going on. I am not sure that the benzotriazole is really having any effect on color balance. I will reduce it next time, and eliminate it after that, to see what happens. Increasing the CD-3 seemed to be a good idea, and is perhaps consistent with Athiril's comment above. The cast is less than when I started, although I am using a much fresher stock, and that could account for that.

    I could probably acquire some AF-2000, but not the Anti-Cal 4, the minimums are too high.

    I have to say, this Eterna Vivid stuff seems pretty awesome - very fine grain for a 500T, and as I paid $90 for 1,000 ft, a lot cheaper than Portra! Now if only I can develop it properly....!
    Attached Thumbnails Attached Thumbnails eterna-test2-1.jpg   eterna-test2-1aa.jpg   eterna-test2-1bb.jpg  

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