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  1. #21

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    I am wondering.....I used an 85B filter instead of an 85A (as I don't currently have an 85A) -- perhaps that is the reason for the cast?

  2. #22
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    Hi newcan,

    I've just started working with ECN-2 myself using 5207 250D Vision3. For developer I used the formula in the "ECN-2 For Pictorial Use" article. Once I have some good scans without other peoples children in them I will post some results. I've only processed one roll so far, but regarding color cast, I didn't notice any overall cast at all. But I can say that the 5207 tends towards a bluish cast on underexposure, and it doesn't take much, like I find when using Ektar. Since the stocks are supposedly closely related I guess that's not a big surprise. The day this roll was shot was mostly overcast with some breaks of full sun. The shots taken in full sun seem to be right on, shots when overcast are a little bit blue for my taste. The other comment I have is that the film does seem to like green in that green grass is GREEN. But skin tones and such were perfectly normal.

    -- Jason

  3. #23

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    Thanks for the info, Jason. I used the same formula for some Vision 3 250D, EXR 200T, Vision 2 500T, to name a few. I was not entirely happy with the formula. Looking at the pics I posted a couple of posts ago, I am thinking that my tweaks to the formula may be moving in the right direction. I should receive an 85A filter in the next few days and will re-shoot a test roll with that. I'm shooting another roll of Eterna Vivid this afternoon still with 85B filter) and should have the results today or tomorrow. If I get good results I'll post the formula-in-process here.

    I don't think I had the same results as you with the Vision 3 250D. I shot some rolls last fall, and they had a slightly green cast which was easily correctable on the computer. I was also able to color correct in the enlarger, and made a few good prints. But my goal is to be able to scan and not have to color correct, which is more or less the case with my C-41 processing.

    Do put up some of your pics when ready and we can compare notes. I'm particularly interested in uncorrected scans (like the one I posted above).

  4. #24
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    Go here for some comparisons of ECN2, Fuji and C41: http://www.ecn-2.com/vs/

    BTAZ is very powerful and affects color balance. Even at 20 mg/L you see effects here. Probably 5 mg/L or thereabouts would be more useful. And the difficulty of balancing is why I do not go around suggesting its use in color. Most color neg-pos systems rely on Halide salts to do the necessary antifogging.

    The sulfuric acid may be used to insure quick stopping action for good uniformity. IDK for sure. It is different though and would not be used unless it were necessary.

    PE
    Last edited by Photo Engineer; 03-28-2012 at 10:33 AM. Click to view previous post history. Reason: Added last paragraph.

  5. #25

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    I have seen that comparison before, PE - it is remarkable, but no surprise. I have found the Kodak Vision series stocks have the most amazing latitude.

    Yes re: benzotriazole, I think my 20mg still caused an unacceptable loss in speed. I don't know what effect it has on color balance but maybe I will learn by reducing the amount. I will try 5mg/L this afternoon. I just sense that having a smidgeon of it in the mix will be helpful.

    The sulfuric acid definitely seems to do something different. there is no pink hue to the wash afterwards - I think it really does work better than acetic acid in this case.

    Finally (for now): PE, you have a thread here on how H202 can enhance contrast in RA4 printing. I tried that and it works very well. I was wondering if that is unique to RA4 or whether it may also raise the contrast of film? I ask because RA4 is CD3 based, like ECN-2 is.

  6. #26
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    Peroxide and other oxidants can be used to increase contrast of color images during color development or afterwards in an amplifier both (See a patent by Travis). It works with many processes, but is complicated by the yellow silver filter layer and by catalytic poisons. Therefore, it works poorly in some films with a yellow silver layer or with DIR or DIAR couplers or with very high iodide films.

    I only fully recommend this with the RA4 process.

    PE

  7. #27

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    Ok well I did test 3 today. This is the developer formula I used:

    Distilled Water 21 to 38°C (70 to 100°F): 850mL
    Sodium Hexametaphosphate: 2.0g
    Sodium Sulfite (Anhydrous): 2.0g
    Potassium Bromide (Anhydrous): 1.4g
    Sodium Carbonate (Anhydrous): 25.6g
    Sodium Bicarbonate: 2.7g
    Benzotriazole: 5mg
    CD-3: 5.2g
    Distilled Water to make
    1L

    I used the published sulfuric acid stop bath, and a ferricyanide bleach.

    The image attached below is one of the un-manipulated image scans from this test film. The colors are very close to the original subject. Other images on the film showed colors more vivid than the original, but this is Eterna Vivid film, so that is to be expected. The real question is how well this developer formula will work with other ECN-2 emulsions.

    I will try it tomorrow with some old, cold stored EXR 200T film and see what happens.

    I should mention that in these tests, I did a pre-soak as the ECN-2 process assumes a pre-soak in removing the remjet backing. In my world, Kodak remjet needs to be removed at the end of the process, but Fuji remjet seems to fall away in the developer. With Fuji films, I may actually presoak in the ECN-2 borax solution instead of water, to see if the remjet will fall away before the developer stage.

    One final comment: I have shot certain subjects on other film that appeared to be sharper than the results I got with this film/developer combination. Looking at my developer formula, is there anything that you see that would diminish sharpness? PE has commented that KBr is high, but in fact, the Kodak formula calls for NaBr, and the difference is attributable solely to molecular weight. Does benzotriazole affect sharpness? Maybe I should reduce it further or eliminate it?
    Attached Thumbnails Attached Thumbnails eterna-test3-1.jpg  

  8. #28
    kb3lms's Avatar
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    Very nice. I may have to get some benzotriazole.

  9. #29
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    I haven't had any problems with an acetic acid stop, but I use it one shot, I can make a comparison on the weekend to see if there is a difference. To expand on the reasons I assumed sulphuric acid was used.. it's about 1/10th the cost isn't it of glacial acetic acid, in the quantities used by the motion picture process, that can add up to a lot of savings in overhead, and as far as I'm concerned I'd probably prefer to handle sulphuric acid in a motion picture processing lab for various reasons.

    Quote Originally Posted by newcan1 View Post
    Hi all - thanks for the comments.

    I tried again, this time with 5.2g/L CD-3, 28g/L (if I remember correctly) Sodium carbonate (ie a little higher than the published formula), and benzotriazole at 20mg/L. That stuff is really powerful, and in my next test I will reduce it further to maybe 5mg/L. Everything else was per the published formula (except 2g/L Calgon instead of anti-cal 4).

    I still have a bit of a cast. Of the images below, "eterna-test2-1.jpg" is a straight, unmanipulated scan showing a slightly greenish cast. The 2-1aa file is color corrected as closely as I can get to the actual subject. For this, on Corel Photo Paint, I added 12 units of blue; nothing else. The third image, 2-1bb, has some contrast enhancement to punch it up a bit.

    So the bottom line is...... test 2 needed a little bump in blue to get a correct output.

    Any suggestions for how to improve the development of the blue layer? I know I have a lot of variables going on. I am not sure that the benzotriazole is really having any effect on color balance. I will reduce it next time, and eliminate it after that, to see what happens. Increasing the CD-3 seemed to be a good idea, and is perhaps consistent with Athiril's comment above. The cast is less than when I started, although I am using a much fresher stock, and that could account for that.

    I could probably acquire some AF-2000, but not the Anti-Cal 4, the minimums are too high.

    I have to say, this Eterna Vivid stuff seems pretty awesome - very fine grain for a 500T, and as I paid $90 for 1,000 ft, a lot cheaper than Portra! Now if only I can develop it properly....!
    That's funny, here you simply cannot get AF-2000, but can get Anti-Calcium No 4, as Kodak Australia do not import AF-2000.. so I just use the ECN-2 Kit for developer, Part A and B.

    You should try a test with no benzotriazole.
    Last edited by Athiril; 03-28-2012 at 09:55 PM. Click to view previous post history.

  10. #30

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    Athiril, interesting that you use a part A and part B kit. With C41 I mix a part A and part B concentrate, and then add the CD4 when the concentrates are mixed.

    I would like to mix concentrates for my ECN-2 formula. Perhaps PE or another supremely knowledgeable being could advise me which chemicals could be mixed as a part A, and which Part B.

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