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  1. #101
    Steve Smith's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by EdSawyer View Post
    unfortunately, by the time any sort of home-processing becomes viable, all the existing film will be hopelessly out of date and magenta-shifted. >:-/
    I have used some K64 which was twenty five years out of date and always kept at room temperature and all it had was a slightly cooler look than normal so I don't think we need to worry too much about it.


    Steve.
    "People who say things won't work are a dime a dozen. People who figure out how to make things work are worth a fortune" - Dave Rat.

  2. #102

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    Quote Originally Posted by Photo Engineer View Post
    Kevs;

    Steve has proven what I have known all along, and that is that Kodachrome can be processed at home. In your lab. If you refuse to acknowledge that, then, well............. IDK what to say.

    PE
    Ron, I'm aware of your previous posts about hand-processing; I find it interesting that it's now been done by someone outside Kodak's sphere. I'm just watching this from the sidelines with no Kodachrome to expose or process, no home lab and no intention of trying it, so I'll just shut up now. :-)

    Cheers,
    kevs
    testing...

  3. #103

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    The Morse G-3 Tanks would require approximately 10 times the volume of chemistry and with the cost of these chemicals it would be a stupid idea.
    Dave

    "She's always out making pictures, She's always out making scenes.
    She's always out the window, When it comes to making Dreams.

    It's all mixed up, It's all mixed up, It's all mixed up."

    From It's All Mixed Up by The Cars

  4. #104
    Worker 11811's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by mopar_guy View Post
    The Morse G-3 Tanks would require approximately 10 times the volume of chemistry and with the cost of these chemicals it would be a stupid idea.
    They are also known for producing uneven, unpredictable development because of the film being wound on itself as it is on the reels. The user must crank the film continuosly, at an even speed to get reasonable results. They are finicky things.

    That's the reason my tank sits in the closet. I'm not in a hurry to get it out.

    The Morse tanks are designed to develop 100 ft. lenths of film. That's why they hold so much liquid.
    I was considering the idea of filling the empty space with plastic bottles or something to take up some of the space.

    I'm still not in a hurry to get the thing out.

    As I said in the beginning, this is all just conceptual thinking.
    Thinking doesn't hurt anything. More people should think before they act, anyway.
    Randy S.

    In girum imus nocte et consumimur igni.

    -----

    http://www.flickr.com/photos/randystankey/

  5. #105
    michaelbsc's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Worker 11811 View Post
    They are also known for producing uneven, unpredictable development because of the film being wound on itself as it is on the reels. The user must crank the film continuosly, at an even speed to get reasonable results. They are finicky things.

    That's the reason my tank sits in the closet. I'm not in a hurry to get it out.

    The Morse tanks are designed to develop 100 ft. lenths of film. That's why they hold so much liquid.
    I was considering the idea of filling the empty space with plastic bottles or something to take up some of the space.

    I'm still not in a hurry to get the thing out.

    As I said in the beginning, this is all just conceptual thinking.
    Thinking doesn't hurt anything. More people should think before they act, anyway.
    Frankly I thought about one of these some months back as well. Mine has the window for reversal exposure. but I sure didn't think of the mobius loop idea. That's not a bad idea at all.

    Mine also sits idle.
    Michael Batchelor
    Industrial Informatics, Inc.
    www.industrialinformatics.com

    The camera catches light. The photographer catches life.

  6. #106
    michaelbsc's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nzoomed View Post
    Yes i do completley agree whee you are coming from. However i do feel sorry for those that never got their film to Dwaynes in time, i was recently contacted by the person who has made a whole film dedicated to the space shuttle and its all shot on kodachrome http://www.shuttlelaunchfilm.com/
    He has films that he has not had processed and needs them done to complete his film. He is keeping them frozen in the mean time.
    It would be great to help such people out, its worth mentioning that Steve Mccurry has kept a stock of kodachrome waiting to be shot in his freezer for the day that processing may happen again.
    Ive got 15 rolls in my freezer that i bought from a photographer cheaply that he never got to shoot, im annoyed i never got the chance to shoot kodachrome myself.
    At least its given me an interest in analog photography again and im stocking up on as much ektachrome as i can afford before thats too late.
    Hell I've got a memorial brick of 120 in the freezer that I just couldn't thaw.
    Michael Batchelor
    Industrial Informatics, Inc.
    www.industrialinformatics.com

    The camera catches light. The photographer catches life.

  7. #107
    holmburgers's Avatar
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    The "Tough" Questions

    The pink elephant in the room, to my mind, is the coupler chemistry used. So far there's been no mention of it by Stephen, though much more curiously, no one has asked.

    Is this something you'd be willing to share?

    I've noticed many times in the past that Mssr. Frizza will achieve things that just blow people away here, and he's always quick to point out that none of it's magic; it's a result of actual work, understanding the process and simply doing it. I greatly respect this, and it's model behavior in an internet community that's all too content with typing thoughts instead of doing actions. (*guilty as charged*) That's probably why we don't see him so often either.

    With that in mind I wouldn't expect to have the whole process divulged just for asking, but I do think that if there is no incentive to keep it "proprietary" (and perhaps there is) then the details might be useful to someone who actually wishes to give this a go at some point.

    On the other hand, I can understand how sharing it might cheapen your hard work. Hell, at least Daguerre got a life-time pension for giving away his process...

    -----------------------------------
    p.s. On "the Kodachrome thread", starting around post #3010 there is a discussion of color developers.

  8. #108
    Stephen Frizza's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by holmburgers View Post
    The pink elephant in the room, to my mind, is the coupler chemistry used. So far there's been no mention of it by Stephen, though much more curiously, no one has asked.

    Is this something you'd be willing to share?

    I've noticed many times in the past that Mssr. Frizza will achieve things that just blow people away here, and he's always quick to point out that none of it's magic; it's a result of actual work, understanding the process and simply doing it. I greatly respect this, and it's model behavior in an internet community that's all too content with typing thoughts instead of doing actions. (*guilty as charged*) That's probably why we don't see him so often either.

    With that in mind I wouldn't expect to have the whole process divulged just for asking, but I do think that if there is no incentive to keep it "proprietary" (and perhaps there is) then the details might be useful to someone who actually wishes to give this a go at some point.

    On the other hand, I can understand how sharing it might cheapen your hard work. Hell, at least Daguerre got a life-time pension for giving away his process...

    -----------------------------------
    p.s. On "the Kodachrome thread", starting around post #3010 there is a discussion of color developers.
    I havent gone into extensive detail simply because anything i write will pale in relation to the wealth of information already available online about every aspect of the kodachrome process. The extensive information on the chemistry, the processing and the film can be found in public domain by kodak. For interest this patent which is wonderfully half the work of Photo Engineer is here....

    http://www.freepatentsonline.com/3658525.pdf

    alternatively something more primitive you can try is....

    Click image for larger version. 

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    If you want to know some info about the processing steps....

    Processing Steps as per kodaks direction....

    Backing Removal Solution
    The alkaline backing removal solution converts the rem-jet
    antihalation backing on the film base into a water-soluble
    form. This backing is removed in the backing removal wash.

    Backing Removal Wash
    This wash performs two functions:
    1. It removes the backing removal solution from the film.
    2. It completely removes the solubilized antihalation
    backing from the base by a combination of water
    action and mechanical buffing.

    First Developer Solution
    In the first developer solution, the exposed silver halide
    grains (latent images) are reduced to metallic silver by the
    action of Phenidone* and hydroquinone developers:
    The resulting silver grains form three superimposed
    negative images of the original scene, one image in each of
    the red-, green-, and blue-sensitive emulsion layers. The
    remaining (unexposed and undeveloped) silver halide in the
    three emulsion layers constitutes the positive (reversal)
    images that are later converted to full-color images in the
    color-development phases of the process.

    First Developer Wash
    This wash stops the development and removes the first
    developer solution from the film.

    Red Reexposure Printing Step
    The red reexposure printing step completely exposes all of
    the remaining silver halide in the red-sensitive (bottom)
    emulsion layer so that the silver halide develops completely
    in the cyan developer solution. At the same time, exposure
    of any remaining silver halide in the blue- and greensensitive
    layers must be avoided to prevent unwanted cyan
    dye development in these layers. This selective exposure is
    obtained by printing through the base side of the film, using
    a properly selected red glass filter in the light beam. The
    green- and blue-sensitive emulsion layers have no
    intentional sensitivity to red light and should therefore
    remain unaffected by the red-light exposure. However, some
    green-sensitive emulsion layers do have a slight, but
    significant, red sensitivity, and accurate control of the red
    printing intensity is necessary.

    Cyan Developer Solution
    In the cyan developer solution, a positive silver image is
    formed in the red-sensitive layer by the action of the color
    developing agent on the silver halide that was exposed
    during the red printing step Simultaneously, the resulting
    oxidized color developer combines with the cyan coupler to
    form a positive cyan dye image. This image is deposited
    only in the red-sensitive emulsion layer.If any red-sensitive halide
    is left undeveloped, unwanted dyes will be produced in the red-sensitive
    layer during later.

    Cyan Developer Wash
    This wash stops cyan development and removes the cyan
    developer solution from the film.

    Blue Reexposure Printing Step
    In this printing step, all the remaining silver halide in the
    blue-sensitive top emulsion layer is exposed so that the silver
    halide develops completely in the yellow developer solution.
    At the same time, exposure of the remaining silver halide in
    the green-sensitive layer (which is also blue-sensitive) must
    be avoided to prevent unwanted yellow dye development in
    the green-sensitive layer. This selective exposure is obtained
    by printing through the emulsion surface of the film, using a
    properly selected blue glass filter in the light beam. The
    yellow filter layer between the blue- and green-sensitive
    layers limits passage of blue light from the emulsion side.
    However, the filter layer does not protect the green-sensitive
    layer from any stray blue printing light that may strike the
    base of the film.
    An optimum printing intensity for each printer should be
    established and then carefully controlled. Overprinting can
    result in unwanted exposure and subsequent yellow
    development of silver halide in the green-sensitive
    (magenta) layer. Underprinting leaves some of the silver
    halide in the yellow layer unexposed and subject to chemical
    exposure and development in the magenta developer. Either
    situation causes some degradation in quality.
    The selected levels of reexposure for both the red and blue
    printing steps are based on the results of actual photographic
    tests including each of the film types that are processed.
    These printer settings are computer controlled. For anything
    other than a lamp failure, call Kodak for service. Processing
    film with an inoperative printer produces unacceptable
    customer film.

    Yellow Developer Solution
    In the yellow developer solution, a positive silver image is
    formed in the blue-sensitive layer by the action of the color
    developing agent on the silver halide that was exposed
    during the blue printing operation. Simultaneously, a
    positive yellow dye image is formed by the reaction between
    the oxidized color developing agent and the yellow coupler.
    See the section, “Cyan Developer Solution” on page 3-2 for
    the generic equations.
    During the yellow development step, the blue-sensitive
    layer must be developed to completion while unwanted
    yellow development (fogging) of the green-sensitive layer is
    kept to a minimum. Any undeveloped silver halide in the
    blue-sensitive layer is developed in the magenta developer
    solution, causing magenta dye contamination in the yellow
    layer. Conversely, fogging of the green-sensitive layer
    during yellow development causes yellow dye
    contamination in the magenta layer and a significant
    reduction in the magenta dye yield. A normal Process
    K-14M yellow developer solution provides the required
    yellow and magenta separation.
    Normally, all of the exposed silver halide in the redsensitive
    layer would be developed in either the first or the
    cyan developer solution. If any exposed silver halide in this
    layer remains undeveloped after the cyan developer solution,
    it is developed in the yellow developer solution, and results
    in yellow dye contamination in the cyan layer.

    Yellow Developer Wash
    This wash stops the yellow development and removes the
    yellow developer solution from the film.

    Magenta Developer Solution
    At this stage in the processing sequence, only the greensensitive
    layer should contain any unexposed silver halide.
    Therefore, selective reexposure is unnecessary. The reversal
    agent in the magenta developer solution nucleates
    (chemically reexposes) all the remaining silver halide.
    During magenta development, a positive silver image is
    formed in the green-sensitive layer by the action of the color
    developing agent on the silver halide. Simultaneously, a
    positive magenta dye image is formed by the reaction of the
    oxidized color developing agent with the magenta coupler.
    See the section, “Cyan Developer Solution” on page 3-2.
    Magenta development is somewhat less critical than cyan
    and yellow development, because if the preceding steps were
    properly carried out, no silver halide should remain in the
    red- and blue-sensitive layers. Therefore, no unwanted
    magenta dye development should occur. However, if any
    silver halide is present in the red- or blue-sensitive layers, it
    is nucleated and developed in the magenta developer
    solution, producing magenta dye contamination of the cyan
    or yellow dye image.
    The silver halide in the green-sensitive layer is the most
    difficult to develop completely, and incomplete
    development results in an inadequate magenta dye image,
    especially in the maximum-density areas

    Magenta Developer Wash
    This wash removes the magenta developer solution from the
    film. This is the most critical of all the wash steps because it
    is more difficult to remove the components of the magenta
    developer solution.

    Conditioner
    The conditioner prepares the metallic silver developed in the
    first and color developers for oxidation to silver halide in the
    bleach step. An oxidized conditioner solution is ineffective
    and may cause silver to be retained in processed film.

    Bleach
    The bleach converts the metallic silver back to silver halide;
    the silver halide is later removed in the fixer.
    During bleaching, iron III is reduced to iron II. Iron II
    must be converted back to iron III by aeration so that
    satisfactory bleaching can continue. Aerate the bleach by
    bubbling air through it.
    Inadequate aeration, underreplenishment, low
    temperature, and over-dilution of the bleach by conditioner
    can cause silver retention, which causes all densities to
    increase. The silver may be removed by bleaching and fixing
    the film again, if necessary.

    Fixer
    The fixer converts all of the silver halide into soluble silver
    compounds. Most of the silver compounds are removed in
    the fixer and can be recovered.
    Underreplenishment, or fixer dilution, causes silver halide
    retention, increased blue density, or yellow D-min. The
    silver halide may be removed by bleaching and fixing the
    film again.

    Final Wash
    The final wash removes chemicals remaining in the film
    emulsion. Complete washing at this stage is important for
    image stability; any chemicals remaining in the film may
    deteriorate the image dyes.

    Final Rinse
    The final rinse contains a wetting agent to reduce water
    spotting and provide uniform drying. To help prevent water
    spots and streaks, replace the final rinse solution daily

    THATS A BASIC OVERIEW OF THE PROCESS AS DESCRIBED BY KODAK.

    and here is a chart outlining the times and temps etc of each processing step...... (when hand processing certain times like the rem jet removal and wash time will need to be adjusted)

    Click image for larger version. 

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    And any other detail under the sun about kodachrome from the way the film is made to the way a K-lab machine works can be found online in the Z-50 tech pubs, there is also the Klab user manuals etc...kodak have openly available everything and anything you want to know. I'm not going to re write the ins and outs of publications that in common knowledge already exist.
    Last edited by Stephen Frizza; 04-04-2012 at 04:53 PM. Click to view previous post history.
    "Its my profession to hijack time" ~ Stephen Frizza.

  9. #109

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    Quote Originally Posted by Stephen Frizza View Post
    I havent gone into extensive detail simply because anything i write will pale in relation to the wealth of information already available online about every aspect of the kodachrome process. The extensive information on the chemistry, the processing and the film can be found in public domain by kodak. For interest this patent which is wonderfully half the work of Photo Engineer is here....

    And any other detail under the sun about kodachrome from the way the film is made to the way a K-lab machine works can be found online in the Z-50 tech pubs, there is also the Klab user manuals etc...kodak have openly available everything and anything you want to know. I'm not going to re write the ins and outs of publications that in common knowledge already exist.
    Thats correct.
    For this very reason ive created this wiki at http://kodachromia.wikia.com with the help of others from the kodachrome project.
    Its main intention is to keep all this relative information to K-14 central to make it easier to sort out and access.
    There is very little on the k-14 process here at present, but i hope all the pages of data can eventually be organised and arranged on the wiki in an easy to use manner.
    When i get some time i will get round to publishing some of this on the wiki, but in the meantime Steve, feel free to add your documentation there, i will give you full administrative access to the wiki.

  10. #110

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    Quote Originally Posted by Steve Smith View Post
    I have used some K64 which was twenty five years out of date and always kept at room temperature and all it had was a slightly cooler look than normal so I don't think we need to worry too much about it.


    Steve.
    Which brings me to this question:

    How does a non-substantive colour reversal film get shifts in colour with age if the colour dyes are not added until processing?

    I have ~10-15 rolls of Kodachrome (K-14) dating from ~1982-1998.

    Thanks
    R



 

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