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  1. #171
    AgX
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    Modern coating machines can be reduced in coating width. But the speed is another factor. Depending on coating technology there is a limited speed range. And with short strips to be coated these must be brought up to speed before coating starts. And the volumes of tubings, the machine rig-up time, cleaning, the preparation of needed elements not availabable off the shelf, necessary pilote runs..., all must be taken into account.

    But as you indicated, it is not an issue of technology and still(!) not an issue of competence, but an issue of economics.

  2. #172
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    What you need is not the old coating machines, but a (new) coating machine that can manufacture in small enough batches that you don't have $1,000,000 worth of perishable product
    This is really the key to film manufacture in the future. We don't really want 54 inch 6000 foot master rolls, we need something more like 24 inch 600 foot master rolls. What's really needed is new machinery designed to produce at this type of scale and the flexibility to make many types of film product on demand. That's an engineering problem that can be solved given the proper minds applied to the task. What we do not seem to have is anyone willing to invest in it. A "right-sized" machine producing at that scale could be kept busy enough to offset it's costs.

    ADOX appears to be headed in this direction, although I don't know that they have scaled themselves up to having their own coating facilities. Rather, IIRC, they have the actual coating done by an outside party that coats many things. But their scale of production seems on track to me.

    Someone at Kodak had dropped hints of capabilities along these lines but apparently that went nowhere.

    Of course, if such a coating faciilty could be shared for other applications that enhances it's appeal.
    All this has happened before, and all this will happen again.

  3. #173
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    Reports of (Colour) Kodachrome Home Processing Emerge from Sydney

    Quote Originally Posted by wogster View Post
    What you need is not the old coating machines, but a coating machine that can manufacture in small enough batches that you don't have $1,000,000 worth of perishable product that you need to unload in a short period of time. I'm thinking a master that is 140mm wide (just over 5½ inches) and maybe 100m long (just over 328 feet) this would allow for trimming into 35mm, 120, 4x5 sheets and 5x7 sheets. It would be a little thick for 120, but you could use the same thickness for 35mm, 4x5 and 5x7....
    I should probably start a new topic for this, but I've always wondered about the thickness, why would 120 need to be thinner? I've noticed the mill of the film differentiate between film sizes but why? It's the same exposure levels etc, why would it change? It can't be the rolling factor since 35mm rolls up as well.

    Side note, what about 70mm perf AND unperf so you can make 116 rolls and shoot it on antique foldies, so fun!


    ~Stone

    The Important Ones - Mamiya: 7 II, RZ67 Pro II / Canon: 1V, AE-1 / Kodak: No 1 Pocket Autographic, No 1A Pocket Autographic

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    ~Stone | "...of course, that's just my opinion. I could be wrong." ~Dennis Miller

  4. #174

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    Which all proves that "Economy of Scale" works in both directions.
    - Bill Lynch

  5. #175
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    First, Kodachrome film does NOT contain more layers than modern color films. Portra and Ektar have 14 or more layers compared to 9 or so for Kodachrome. Second, any machine can coat Kodachrome. Third, Kodachrome can be processed by hand. And the couplers and CD-6 are the ingredients of Kodachrome that are hard to get.

    BTDT. I hate all of this repetition. See the other bigger Kodachrome thread for all of the info.

    PE

  6. #176
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    Quote Originally Posted by StoneNYC View Post
    I should probably start a new topic for this, but I've always wondered about the thickness, why would 120 need to be thinner? I've noticed the mill of the film differentiate between film sizes but why? It's the same exposure levels etc, why would it change? It can't be the rolling factor since 35mm rolls up as well.

    Side note, what about 70mm perf AND unperf so you can make 116 rolls and shoot it on antique foldies, so fun!


    ~Stone

    The Important Ones - Mamiya: 7 II, RZ67 Pro II / Canon: 1V, AE-1 / Kodak: No 1 Pocket Autographic, No 1A Pocket Autographic

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    120 needs to be thinner because it has to be rolled up with backing paper on the spool as well.
    Matt

    “Photography is a complex and fluid medium, and its many factors are not applied in simple sequence. Rather, the process may be likened to the art of the juggler in keeping many balls in the air at one time!”

    Ansel Adams, from the introduction to The Negative - The New Ansel Adams Photography Series / Book 2

  7. #177
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    Reports of (Colour) Kodachrome Home Processing Emerge from Sydney

    Quote Originally Posted by MattKing View Post
    120 needs to be thinner because it has to be rolled up with backing paper on the spool as well.
    Oh right! But still, what does that have to do with anything, I mean I know you would need more spool room (wider flange) but it still could be done right? Is it just back in the day when 120 was created they decided to make it thinner than 4x5? Or was 4x5 thinner then?

    Like I said probably should start a new thread, I just like understanding the reasons and that's usually a history lesson.

    Thanks.


    ~Stone

    The Noteworthy Ones - Mamiya: 7 II, RZ67 Pro II / Canon: 1V, AE-1 / Kodak: No 1 Pocket Autographic, No 1A Pocket Autographic

    Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
    ~Stone | "...of course, that's just my opinion. I could be wrong." ~Dennis Miller

  8. #178
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    Kodachrome was processed in what was called a roller transport machine. When in use, 35mm and 120 take different tensions due to the wider thinner base of the 120. If tension is not adjusted, the 120 buckles and touches the undercut roller in the center. The same problem exists with coating machines and these supports and it also involves DW and SW FB papers. Similar problems.

    PE

  9. #179
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    Quote Originally Posted by StoneNYC View Post
    I should probably start a new topic for this, but I've always wondered about the thickness, why would 120 need to be thinner? I've noticed the mill of the film differentiate between film sizes but why? It's the same exposure levels etc, why would it change? It can't be the rolling factor since 35mm rolls up as well.

    Side note, what about 70mm perf AND unperf so you can make 116 rolls and shoot it on antique foldies, so fun!


    ~Stone

    The Important Ones - Mamiya: 7 II, RZ67 Pro II / Canon: 1V, AE-1 / Kodak: No 1 Pocket Autographic, No 1A Pocket Autographic

    Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk
    I think that it's not 120 is thinner, but that 35mm is thicker to prevent it from tearing out the perforations, you could probably coat it on the same base if the base was polyester so that it wouldn't tear so easily. sheet film base is thicker still to give it stiffness needed so it doesn't slump down in the film holder. A thinner film would require a different focus adjustment just like a thicker one would.
    Paul Schmidt
    See my Blog at http://clickandspin.blogspot.com

    The greatest advance in photography in the last 100 years is not digital, it's odourless stop bath....

  10. #180
    wogster's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by AgX View Post
    Modern coating machines can be reduced in coating width. But the speed is another factor. Depending on coating technology there is a limited speed range. And with short strips to be coated these must be brought up to speed before coating starts. And the volumes of tubings, the machine rig-up time, cleaning, the preparation of needed elements not availabable off the shelf, necessary pilote runs..., all must be taken into account.

    But as you indicated, it is not an issue of technology and still(!) not an issue of competence, but an issue of economics.
    There are two issues of economics, you can produce more then the market will bear, which means a lot of waste, or you can produce a small amount, and sell all you can make, it costs more to make per unit, but vast amounts of waste are not economical as well.
    Paul Schmidt
    See my Blog at http://clickandspin.blogspot.com

    The greatest advance in photography in the last 100 years is not digital, it's odourless stop bath....



 

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