primary colors are subjective?

[Bill Burk]

The problem that arises is that the subtractive primaries are presented in school as "red, blue, and yellow", when in fact they're no such thing.

Right that the three colors given in schools are called red, blue and yellow. But the schools are not giving industry standard colors to the kids. They really are giving out red, blue and yellow. (Which doesn't work).

Which probably teaches the kids critical thinking and problem solving at an early age, because the colors don't come out right when they mix them.

[hrst]

Good point, Bill!

For example, regarding the tongue map myth, I was fascinated by the taste map picture in our book and tried it at home by applying sugar, salt etc. to different parts of my tongue. And I was quite disappointed when I tasted everything in every spot. Go figure! A "scientific theory", taught world-wide, disproven by any 8-year-old in just minutes!

But I fear most kids are not up to the level to analyze the problem why the colors don't come out right. After all, you need to understand the color theory (as in this thread), and it's hard to understand if it is not taught at all (*).

Instead, the kids get frustrated when they get no bright colors. The problem is escalated by giving them extra thick brushes, something you could use to paint walls. The results are blurry, muddy-colored splodges on the wrinkled paper. And getting frustrated, they get a trauma on painting, "I'm no good on this". This is exactly what I and my friends experienced and I fear it's also world-wide .

It took me many many years to analyze these problems after the fact. I can be happy as I figured it out, but 99,99% of people didn't and they just still think that every color is made of red, yellow and blue (like all matter would be made of air, fire, earth and water :P). Hence, the school fails in the regard of giving "general education", even though some individuals may get a spark of interest when they find out they were lied to.

(*) Even if you were a genius, you still need to know that the cones are R,G,B. When this is taught nowhere, the only way to find it out is to sit too near to a TV screen and figure out that the engineers must have had it right as they got it working so well. After this, you still need to figure out the additive/subtractive thing by yourself; no-one is going to explain it for you.

[Steve Smith]

A "scientific theory", taught world-wide, disproven by any 8-year-old in just minutes!

Lots of stuff is taught which is actually wrong.

An example of this is the rule I before E except after C. There are many more exceptions to this 'rule' than there are conforming words.


Steve.

[wogster]

Good point, Bill!

For example, regarding the tongue map myth, I was fascinated by the taste map picture in our book and tried it at home by applying sugar, salt etc. to different parts of my tongue. And I was quite disappointed when I tasted everything in every spot. Go figure! A "scientific theory", taught world-wide, disproven by any 8-year-old in just minutes!

But I fear most kids are not up to the level to analyze the problem why the colors don't come out right. After all, you need to understand the color theory (as in this thread), and it's hard to understand if it is not taught at all (*).

Instead, the kids get frustrated when they get no bright colors. The problem is escalated by giving them extra thick brushes, something you could use to paint walls. The results are blurry, muddy-colored splodges on the wrinkled paper. And getting frustrated, they get a trauma on painting, "I'm no good on this". This is exactly what I and my friends experienced and I fear it's also world-wide .

It took me many many years to analyze these problems after the fact. I can be happy as I figured it out, but 99,99% of people didn't and they just still think that every color is made of red, yellow and blue (like all matter would be made of air, fire, earth and water :P). Hence, the school fails in the regard of giving "general education", even though some individuals may get a spark of interest when they find out they were lied to.

(*) Even if you were a genius, you still need to know that the cones are R,G,B. When this is taught nowhere, the only way to find it out is to sit too near to a TV screen and figure out that the engineers must have had it right as they got it working so well. After this, you still need to figure out the additive/subtractive thing by yourself; no-one is going to explain it for you.

One of the issues for childrens painting is that small children don't have the fine motor control to do it well, so their painting looks rather primitive, they need the big thick brush to be able to grip it well enough to make it work. Mixing paint colours has nothing to do with the colours the result reflects it's really chemical, not visual.

[Plate Voltage]

I agree with Leigh, it's pretty simple. The only problem is the school. Just like the taste map thing. It's funny to hear we have exactly the same misinformation and the same legends all over the world .

These are all scientific problems from 1700-1800. They were all clear in the beginning of 1900, but they are still unclear to the teachers whose responsibility is to teach those things to kids, and even to some authors who have been taught by these kind of teachers.

It's understandable that "laymen" do not check every "fact" they hear. However, teachers and authors should be a bit more careful.

Yes, school is definitely the problem.

The starting point for me is the fact that I'm colourblind and my family moved when I was a kid so I changed schools between kindergarten and grade one. One school taught the primary colours as red, green and blue, and the other school taught them as red, blue and yellow. I'm sure the sudden change in the way the two schools taught colour would be confusing for any kid that age but with the colourblindness on top, I was really lost. Also, the fact that two different teachers in the same school board can't even agree on what the primary colours are should be cause for concern by itself. What other facts change depending on who's teaching the class?

Being colourblind in elementary school was a real joy though. I got zeroed on so many assignments because the colours were totally off. I used orange markers to draw grass because they were the closest looking ones available since the green ones weren't a bright enough green and looked grey and things like that. I remember this one self portrait assignment where I blew the colour of the lips and I got hauled in front of the class and asked what colour I drew them in and what colour they should be and I kept guessing at both. This went around and around until I finally got sent to the principal's office. The problem wasn't that I was refusing to learn, it was an uncorrectable hereditary vision problem combined with the sheer stubbornness of the local school board. When an unstoppable force meets an immovable object...

The irony was the school system gave me a set of hearing and visual acuity tests around the same time. So they tested and took measurements of everything except for the one obvious trouble spot that was causing problems in class. Great.

[artonpaper]

That's funny--for as long as I've worked in publishing and done any kind of graphic arts work, I've always referred to four-color process as CMYK, and every printer I've ever worked with has done so, too.

My experience in the printing industry was from the early to mid sixties. It may be that the names of inks have finally caught up with reality. But I assure you, I worked in several shops, including the high end one mentioned above, where they printed Random House children's books. I think printing and printers may have become more sophisticated.

It's also interesting to note that Chuck Close did a series of paintings using CMYK retouching dyes, in an attempt to simulate color photography. They always looked very Muddy to me, compared to a good C print. The other thing about painting is, which red are we speaking of? Some of the reds have a good dose of blue in them, making them much closer to magenta. Some yellows seem to turn green at the drop of hat. Even a dab of back in there will cause a bit of green to lurk about.

[hrst]

The other thing about painting is, which red are we speaking of? Some of the reds have a good dose of blue in them, making them much closer to magenta. Some yellows seem to turn green at the drop of hat. Even a dab of back in there will cause a bit of green to lurk about.

This is exactly the point.

The colors that are described as "red, yellow and blue" are NOT even near to red, yellow and blue. Well, the yellow is yellow! But red is magentaish-red and blue is almost cyan.

If they were red and blue, it wouldn't work at all. If they were magenta, yellow and cyan, it would work perfectly. Usually, they are something between those and it works quite well.

[holmburgers]

Magenta is red in a sense, and cyan is most definitely greenish-blue; but the key is that we're talking about half-way points between red, green & blue, the physiological primaries.

"I love the smell of color in the morning."

[Diapositivo]

Millions of people are taught on primary school that before Christopher Columbus the Earth was believed to be flat.

Millions of people are taught on primary school that Muslims believe in Allah. (They believe in God. Allah is the Arab word for God. Christian Arabs say "Allah" at the Christian mass. That's like saying that Italian Catholics believe in Dio and German Protestants believe in Gott instead).

Millions of people are taught on primary school, more or less, that Newton discovered that apples fall from trees.

Millions of people are taught on primary school that Einstein discovered that "all is relative". And they repeat it all their life: "as Einstein discovered, all is relative".

Millions of people never use the faculty their brain has to think critically, they just think other people's thoughts and they live happy.

Nobody is taught to question whether what the schoolbook says makes sense. If it's printed, it must be true. It's an attitude that goes on all life. It's not just teachers.

(morning rant mood, should be hopefully over by lunchtime).

[Steve Smith]

morning rant mood, should be hopefully over by lunchtime.

That's o.k. Keep going!


Steve.