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  1. #41
    wogster's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Diapositivo View Post
    Millions of people are taught on primary school that before Christopher Columbus the Earth was believed to be flat.

    Millions of people are taught on primary school that Muslims believe in Allah. (They believe in God. Allah is the Arab word for God. Christian Arabs say "Allah" at the Christian mass. That's like saying that Italian Catholics believe in Dio and German Protestants believe in Gott instead).

    Millions of people are taught on primary school, more or less, that Newton discovered that apples fall from trees.

    Millions of people are taught on primary school that Einstein discovered that "all is relative". And they repeat it all their life: "as Einstein discovered, all is relative".

    Millions of people never use the faculty their brain has to think critically, they just think other people's thoughts and they live happy.

    Nobody is taught to question whether what the schoolbook says makes sense. If it's printed, it must be true. It's an attitude that goes on all life. It's not just teachers.

    (morning rant mood, should be hopefully over by lunchtime).
    Yes and now that they have been acclimatized to believing anything in print, they accept the Internet as the same, it even looks like print. I decided at one point that 33% of the stuff on the Internet isn't true, 33% is simply male bovine manure, and another 33% is lying propaganda, written by some idiot with an agenda. That means 1% is left that is true.
    Paul Schmidt
    See my Blog at http://clickandspin.blogspot.com

    The greatest advance in photography in the last 100 years is not digital, it's odourless stop bath....

  2. #42
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    Quote Originally Posted by wogster View Post
    Yes and now that they have been acclimatized to believing anything in print, they accept the Internet as the same, it even looks like print. I decided at one point that 33% of the stuff on the Internet isn't true, 33% is simply male bovine manure, and another 33% is lying propaganda, written by some idiot with an agenda. That means 1% is left that is true.
    Wow! You're such an optimist.

    You really think that much is true?
    Michael Batchelor
    Industrial Informatics, Inc.
    www.industrialinformatics.com

    The camera catches light. The photographer catches life.

  3. #43
    David Lyga's Avatar
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    DIAPOSITIVO: You are in danger of being adjudged a miscreant because you make too much sense for our 'five minute' culture.

    Amongst the ancient Romans, many thought that the world was round. I believe that there is even an ancient Roman coin showing a spherical earth. And Columbus 'discovering' America plays into the desperate truisms which we hold dear in order to justify our 'superior' European heritage. We are the man, Diapositivo! I qualify for such notoriety because I am both Sardinian and Ukrainian, thus, safely European. I am safe here.

    Perhaps there will be time to include the Native Americans into the 'discovery' agenda. Someday, perhaps. That, well after we learn to teach our fragile schoolchildren that the Scandinavians pre-empted both the Spaniards and Romans in this dire quest for hegemony. - David Lyga

  4. #44
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    Quote Originally Posted by David Lyga View Post
    And Columbus 'discovering' America plays into the desperate truisms which we hold dear in order to justify our 'superior' European heritage.
    I remember hearing a song which started off with a spoken line saying that America was discovered by Amerigo Vespucci but he very wisely kept quiet about it!


    Steve.

  5. #45

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    Quote Originally Posted by Diapositivo View Post
    <snip> Nobody is taught to question whether what the schoolbook says makes sense. If it's printed, it must be true. It's an attitude that goes on all life. It's not just teachers.
    Actually, most kids here are punished for being exigent. We learn early to keep our mouths shut and never question authority nor the information espoused from those in charge. In my experience those teachers who do promote individualistic thinking are precious rare jewels in our education systems.

  6. #46
    Diapositivo's Avatar
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    All peoples of all ages knew the Earth is not flat, that's why they built observation towers (the Earth being "round", if you stand up you see much further) and that's why they put a man on the "top" of masts in ships, to see further. The observation that the mast appears over the horizon before the ship itself when the ship approaches is since ever an obvious indication of the roundness of the Earth. If the Earth was flat, climbing on top of a tree would not give any serious visual advantage.

    The dimensions of the Earth were calculated with great precision by Eratosthenes of Cyrene in the III century before Christ. By the time of Columbus it was also known with decent exactitude where the "Indies" (which meant Indonesia and China for practical purposes, silk, spices) were and how long would the navigation have lasted to reach them.

    The problem was that ships of the time didn't have the sufficient "autonomy" to safely attempt the journey.

    Colombus (Cristoforo Colombo in Italian) was a supporter of a minoritary geographical thesis, which calculated the diameter of the Earth according to a different reasoning, and estimated the Earth much smaller than it is in reality. By those calculations, a ship of the times of Columbus could have reached the Indies, if led by a good commander.

    The expedition organised by Columbus had set a certain amount of days of navigation before calling the attempt failed and going back. Land was found when the sailors were already getting pretty nervous about the expedition.

    So the attempt by Columbus was made because it rested on a wrong calculation of the Earth diameter. People of the time knew it was round, and knew pretty well how big it was. Columbus knew it was round too, but was wrong about how big it was. The Earth wasn't flat for anybody.

    So Columbus certainly was one of the greatest navigators of all times, doing back and forth from Spain to America several times without getting lost and within the autonomy of the ships of the time was not so easy. His observations "opened the way" to stable navigation with America. Centuries later entire fleets could still go lost in the sea before the advent of modern naval watches allowed to estimate longitude with sufficient precision. But he certainly was not a brilliant geographer

    Fabrizio
    Last edited by Diapositivo; 04-17-2012 at 01:16 PM. Click to view previous post history.
    Fabrizio Ruggeri fine art photography site: http://fabrizio-ruggeri.artistwebsites.com
    Stock images at Imagebroker: http://www.imagebroker.com/#/search/ib_fbr

  7. #47
    wogster's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by michaelbsc View Post
    Wow! You're such an optimist.

    You really think that much is true?
    Yeah I think 1% is about right, if you know the right places to go, you can find some good information, in the right context. Around here (APUG) you will get accurate information about film, processing, chemistry, mostly due to the fact everything is subject to peer review. Don't ask about d*****l, because a lot of people around here don't like it, so you are less likely to get peer review.
    Paul Schmidt
    See my Blog at http://clickandspin.blogspot.com

    The greatest advance in photography in the last 100 years is not digital, it's odourless stop bath....

  8. #48
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    Still, there are many myths present due to the fact that amateur peer reviewing has a tendency to amplify myths that are too common to begin with. This is a simple process: the echo chamber effect amplifies common disinformation, and if someone tries to correct, there are a huge number of opponents shooting it down. This further leads to dissatisfaction by those few who disagree, often causing them to leave the scene or at least shut their mouths by changing subject, hence the chain reaction towards amplifying the myths. But, this process takes place only when the myth is very usual in the start.

    Anyhow, I agree that the percentage of real information here is much much more than 1% and such myth processes are not very common compared to most discussion forums on the Internet .

    For example, it is a common myth that color processing is impossible at home, but we don't have that one here, thanks to our administrators&moderators who were expertised enough to create the relevant subforums, and a sufficient number of avid posters who process color at home.

  9. #49
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    SIWA SAID: For example, it is a common myth that color processing is impossible at home

    And that is why I have said time and again that color chemicals last FOREVER if you store them in PET plastic bottle (or, of course, glass) filled to the very rim (using glass marbles to take up the slack). Many feel that the Achilles' Heel in this color development is the "short shelf life" because of the necessity of having only a small amount of sodium sulfite in the developer, as compared with a much larger amount in B&W developers. All this vulnerability can be removed by storing as I said, in PET plastic (soda, juice, Gatorade bottles).

    I do not have special enlargers: Mine is a Meopta 35mm enlarger with B&W head. I use the filter drawer for color. I do not even use a blix. I develop, stop, then FIX. THEN....I bleach in potassium ferricyanide. Then, a brief immersion back in the original fix. Wash. DONE! Excellent, predictable results. And I do it all at 80F (about 18 C) - David Lyga

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