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  1. #41
    holmburgers's Avatar
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    Hmmm, holographic plates aren't cheap and they're as slow as molasses, if not slower. This seems a bit like going to the moon by way of Venus! If 4x5" or 8x10" film sags too much for registration, maybe you could sandwich them between two pieces of glass and shoot them in a spring-plate pressure plate.

    For me, figuring out the dye process is paramount and everything else is secondary, but I can't fault you for being imaginitive.
    If you are the big tree, we are the small axe

  2. #42
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    An in-camera exposure on a holographic plate is going to be something like 2 minutes at f/8 in bright sunlight, or at least that's what it takes for a Lippmann developer (post #70).

    A much simpler approach would be to take sequential exposures of a still-life, and/or, make separations of the red & green from regular color film.

    You should look into true color toning, where the silver becomes C/M/Y. There was a process called Defender Chromatone that used this method. Unfortunately, the toning solutions where proprietary, but I think there are some formulas in Friedman's History.

  3. #43
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    Friedman's book gives several pages of toner formulas for making color images.

    PE

  4. #44
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    Quote Originally Posted by johnielvis View Post
    no success yet with edwal toners--they are obviously not powerful enough in their bleaching action to get to the heavy silver content of the film (reversal tri-x)...

    hell I took some regular tri x--no fix no reversal at all..just developed to black...the bleach doesn't seem to do anything to it....must use STRONGER bleaching then....looks like best is 2 step--bleach to silver ferrocyanide then dye that....the problem is bleaching...they show that you should put acetic acid for the bleachign--tried that with vinegar and it doesn't seem to help (edwal suggest adding acetic to speed up the process)...this stuff is too weak---I want tone to completion, so I need the quickest acting and most uncontrollable dye toning process there is...all the formulae for paper seem to be way too weak and designed to be slow so you can watch it and get it before it goes too far...I WANT it to go too far....back to the sink...

    When you say you're going to make a stronger bleach... do NOT use any kind of strong acid with ferrocyanide, or ferricyanide for that matter, or Elvis will be leaving the building.

  5. #45
    holmburgers's Avatar
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    *gulp*
    If you are the big tree, we are the small axe

  6. #46
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    If I may humbly opine, this is getting away from Capstaff Kodachrome... just a hair.

    I think the defining attribute of the process is the use of dyes having the appropriate color. That's what's responsible for the look.

    By messing with toners you certainly might get something, and I think it's worth pursuing, but it's going to be a fundamentally different process and will probably look quite a bit different.

    Let us have a look at your colors once you figure this out.
    If you are the big tree, we are the small axe

  7. #47
    holmburgers's Avatar
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    I understand, but the thread is called Capstaff's Two-Colour Kodachrome Process.

    However, I'm not trying to be a pedant; figuring out a new and novel process is awesome. I just think we should create threads that suit the discussion. All this talk of toning in the Capstaff thread just doesn't compute somehow, and I think it's misleading if someone were to jump in on it. Not to mention, your work on color toning is now buried where others might not be able to find it if they're looking for it.

    Threads can go awry, that's all I'm saying I guess. Sorry for being curmudgeonly...

    Now, as for your comment, "who know WHAT he used exactly--no point in trying to guess...". Well, I guess that would be one goal of this thread.
    If you are the big tree, we are the small axe

  8. #48
    holmburgers's Avatar
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    It's not about the materials being exactly alike, that doesn't matter. What does matter is recognizing that Capstaff's procedure is always a 2-color process, but a 2-color process is not always the Capstaff procedure... that's all I guess.

    At any rate, I think what you're talking about is interesting and by all means you should carry on!

    The hologram films/plates do offer a unique advantage, admittedly, being the only emulsions that are both transparent and sensitized to only red or green. This can make an easy bipack; just pop a yellow filter on and voila. That is brilliant. I guess I wasn't thinking about how to get the separations as much as what to do with them once we had them.

    This probably isn't practicable, but how about this for a bipack?... 3 different elements, sandwiched together behind the lens in this order; a film coated with liquid light, a very thin yellow acetate sheet, and a sheet of ortho film. You'd get a blue record and a green record. Or substitute the yellow acetate for red, and the ortho for panchro; you get blue and red records.
    If you are the big tree, we are the small axe

  9. #49

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    I've only recently come across this thread and was interested in the discussion of the so-called "pinatype" dyes. Unfortunately, the 1911 article which discusses the dyes does not use modern nomenclature, so other than dyes with classic names such as eosin, it is very difficult to determine which dyes were tested. Capstaff in his original patent, US 1196080, describes the dyes as "acid (preferably the salt of a sulfonic acid)". As near as I can tell the dyes in the Kodak dye transfer method, Acid blue 45, Acid red 80, and Acid Yellow 11, all have a sulfate group and are acid dyes. Therefore they might fit the requirements of Capstaff's patent. It is logical that dyes suitable for relief matrices would also work with planographic matrices.

    The Capstaff patent, however, mentions one critical step necessary for a planographic matrix: the gelatin must be dried out before being immersed in the dye bath. As a side-note, the original processing for the Godowsky and Mannes dye-coupler Kodachrome required that the film be dried out thoroughly before being immersed in the bleach bath. This allowed the controlled diffusion of the bleach into just the outer, (yellow), or outer two, (yellow and magenta) layers. Godowsky and Mannes might have been familiar with the Capstaff process before inventing their controlled diffusion bleach system.

  10. #50

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    Pinatype dyes

    I've only recently come across this thread and was interested in the discussion of the so-called "pinatype" dyes. Unfortunately, the 1911 article which discusses the dyes does not use modern nomenclature, so other than dyes with classic names such as eosin, it is very difficult to determine which dyes were tested. Capstaff in his original patent, US 1196080, describes the dyes as "acid (preferably the salt of a sulfonic acid)". As near as I can tell the dyes in the Kodak dye transfer method, Acid blue 45, Acid red 80, and Acid Yellow 11, all have a sulfate group and are acid dyes. Therefore they might fit the requirements of Capstaff's patent. It is logical that dyes suitable for relief matrices would also work with planographic matrices.

    The Capstaff patent, however, mentions one critical step necessary for a planographic matrix: the gelatin must be dried out before being immersed in the dye bath. As a side-note, the original processing for the Godowsky and Mannes dye-coupler Kodachrome required that the film be dried out thoroughly before being immersed in the bleach bath. This allowed the controlled diffusion of the bleach into just the outer, (yellow), or outer two, (yellow and magenta) layers. Godowsky and Mannes might have been familiar with the Capstaff process before inventing their controlled diffusion bleach system.

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