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  1. #21
    David Lyga's Avatar
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    SIWA (and all): I honestly have NO problems with using a normal stop (1% acetic acid). And, to my surprise, there was NO dilution in color saturation without the bleach. And, again, to my surprise, all the silver came off with only the bleach after the fix, but just to be sure I put the film into the fix again, briefly, after the bleach. All I can impart is what I experience.

    To all: I get my color chemicals from a firm in Rochester, NY and they ship quickly and are very reasonable in price. It's PDISUPPLY.COM - David Lyga
    Last edited by David Lyga; 07-17-2012 at 07:56 AM. Click to view previous post history.

  2. #22
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    There are variants of all the chemicals. The replenishment rate varies. I got my 8ml/roll rate straight out of Kodak's directions for the bleach I use.
    Mark Barendt, Beaverton, OR

    "We do not see things the way they are. We see things the way we are." Anaïs Nin

  3. #23

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    Nice to know I can get the proper chemicals in liquid form. After I use up the powder kit I will switch to the liquid chemicals. AND it's nice to know that there is a strong bunch of people using them too.

    Guess I need to try developing my first roll of color this weekend. Can't what to see the results!!

    Bob E.
    Nikon F5, Nikon F4S, Nikon FA, Nikon FE, Nikon N90, Nikon N80, Nikon N75, Mamiya 645 Pro, Mamiya Press Super 23, Yashica Lynx 14e, Yashica Electro GSN, Yashica 124G, Yashica D

  4. #24
    hrst's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by David Lyga View Post
    SIWA (and all): I honestly have NO problems with using a normal stop (1% acetic acid).
    Good to hear. On the other hand, in the standard C-41, you don't need a stop neither a rinse. You can go directly from the developer to the standard bleach. This makes the process simple and quick.

    And, to my surprise, there was NO dilution in color saturation without the bleach.
    There clearly is, but maybe we are differently sensitive to this effect. I would call it something like "saturation minus 30%". To my eyes, it is a clear effect, but indeed not as pronounced as advertised. In the motion picture business, this effect can be used at any copy stage or at multiple stages (camera neg, interpos, interneg, release print), or today, digital technologies can be combined with the effect.

    But well, to be fair, I have tested bleach bypassing only with ECN-2 negatives and RA-4 prints. The effect may vary somewhat between processes, films etc. Maybe you are right that at least some C-41 films have less pronounced effect of saturation reduction.

    And, again, to my surprise, all the silver came off with only the bleach after the fix
    No, it does not come off the film, it just changes form! It can look good without fixing, but it starts turning back to silver when exposed to light, just like your unprocessed film or printing paper gets darker when exposed for prolonged times. So the negative with only-bleach-not-fix will look almost the same as properly processed in the beginning but slowly turns towards bleach-bypassed look. This can happen in a few days if left in strong light; or if protected from light, it might never happen.

    but just to be sure I put the film into the fix again, briefly, after the bleach.
    It needs enough time for the fixer to diffuse into film and dissolve the formed silver halide. Just like fixing normally does. Now, 30 seconds may barely be enough to remove most of the silver halide created by the bleach, and if there is some residual, you won't necessarily see it until your negatives are exposed to light for longer periods. The point is, just fix it 3-4 minutes once you are at it.

  5. #25
    BrendanCarlson's Avatar
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    I find that as long as I am careful to not contaminate my chemicals they last almost as long as my b&w chems. I have had the tetenal kit for 7 months and it's still running strong. (I'm only 12 rolls in though, and I think it'll last at least 20)
    Everybody has a photographic memory, some just don't have film.
    My Website and Gallery is at www.bcarlsonmedia.com
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  6. #26
    Greg Davis's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by David Lyga View Post
    ...to my surprise, there was NO dilution in color saturation without the bleach. And, again, to my surprise, all the silver came off with only the bleach after the fix...
    I highly recommend you look at the results I posted testing your method against standard C-41. It clearly shows color cross over, desaturation, and retained silver.
    http://www.apug.org/forums/forum40/1...omparison.html
    www.gregorytdavis.com

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  7. #27
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    If you skip the bleach step, you get a dramatically different negative, for example; note the skintones. That neg was about 3 stops denser than a normal C41 neg because of all the silver in it. The real contrast is much higher than that; this being a neg scan I can successfully reduce it to get a viewable image.

  8. #28
    David Lyga's Avatar
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    Folks, I know that what I say does not make theoretical sense but it does work and my old negatives (a decade or more) still print just as well and are just as clean. ALL the silver has been removed with my way.

    Polyglot: I refrained from bleaching after fixation in order to get more pastel hues but was 'rewarded' with saturation as strong as when bleached. (Maybe a bit stronger because of the increased contrast brought about with that layer of exposed silver on top of the dyes). When looking at the fixed, not bleached, negative under a strong light with a magnifying glass the color saturation of that negative is full and beautiful. I cannot explain this but it works. - David Lyga
    Last edited by David Lyga; 07-18-2012 at 08:29 AM. Click to view previous post history.

  9. #29
    Greg Davis's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by David Lyga View Post
    When looking at the fixed, not bleached, negative under a strong light with a magnifying glass the color saturation of that negative is full and beautiful.
    But how does it look when printed? If you cannot see the difference in the prints I posted in the linked thread, then you are convincing yourself that your process has no defects.
    www.gregorytdavis.com

    Did millions of people suddenly disappear? This may have an answer.

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  10. #30
    polyglot's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by David Lyga View Post
    Folks, I know that what I say does not make theoretical sense but it does work and my old negatives (a decade or more) still print just as well and are just as clean. ALL the silver has been removed with my way.

    Polyglot: I refrained from bleaching after fixation in order to get more pastel hues but was 'rewarded' with saturation as strong as when bleached. (Maybe a bit stronger because of the increased contrast brought about with that layer of exposed silver on top of the dyes). When looking at the fixed, not bleached, negative under a strong light with a magnifying glass the color saturation of that negative is full and beautiful. I cannot explain this but it works. - David Lyga
    You don't bleach after fixing normally, you bleach before fixing. The bleach converts metallic silver to silver halides then the fixer removes silver halides. If your usual process is to bleach AFTER fixing, then that is broken because you're leaving your film with a whole bunch of retained silver halide where there was image; it won't affect the density much on fresh negs so you're seeing what looks like good saturation, but effectively you have semi-unfixed film. It will go brown(er) and degrade rapidly in storage, and it will do so in the dense (bright) parts of the image.

    If you want the low-saturation high-contrast look, skip the bleach altogether and just fix; it will leave all the metallic silver in there. Or only do a little bleaching, e.g. 2:00 instead of 6:30, to remove some but not all of the silver. Bleach-bypass isn't really a pastel look, it's a contrasty, gritty, war-movie look (Saving Private Ryan, Children of Men).

    If you want pastels, get up on the shoulder of the film by overexposing by about 3 stops and follow the normal dev/bleach/fix process.

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