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  1. #371

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    Quote Originally Posted by Gerald C Koch View Post
    May I take this opportunity to STRONGLY DISCOURAGE anyone reading this thread from attempting to synthesis any chemical compounds. Not only can it be very dangerous and potentially life threatening but it requires a firm knowledge of organic synthesis and a well equipped laboratory. Something that people do not usually have in their basement. Even a deceptively simple compound can be very difficult to make. As an example I give azulene which is a geometrical isomer of naphthalene a common and readily available chemical.

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pfau-Pl...lene_synthesis

    constrast this with the naphthalene structure

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Naphthalene

    Instead of having two condensed six membered rings it has a five member and a seven member ring. On paper it would seem easy to move the center bond to accomplish this. A simple synthesis which assumes certain special raw materials also be available runs to a dozen steps.

    The more this thread goes on the more it should become plain to everyone that Kodachrome processing is not coming back. There is no motivation or money to make it come back.
    From reading this it sounds like we do have some Organic Chemists on this Forum!
    lol
    Anyway, as far as the saftey goes for the finished product, the K-14 chemicals are supposed to be no more dangerous than any other film processing chemicals such as C41, E6 etc, according to the MSDS that Kodak released for the K-14 chemicals.

    Of course its potentially dangerous to synthesise chemicals etc with no chemistry experience, fume cabinets respirators etc.
    I sure as hell wont be touching it, but im still interested to learn the chemical makeup for interests sake.

  2. #372
    Ken Nadvornick's Avatar
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    What an utterly fascinating battle of wills going on here...



    Ken
    "They are the proof that something was there and no longer is. Like a stain. And the stillness of them is boggling. You can turn away but when you come back they’ll still be there looking at you."

    — Diane Arbus, March 15, 1971, in response to a request for a brief statement about photographs

  3. #373

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    Many years ago the Dignan Newsletter published the formulas for all the K-12 and K-14 processing solutions.
    A rock pile ceases to be a rock pile the moment a single man contemplates it, bearing within him the image of a cathedral.

    ~Antoine de Saint-Exupery

  4. #374

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    Quote Originally Posted by Photo Engineer View Post
    Organic Chemistry by the untrained is a sure way to shorten your lifespan! I cannot believe this thread.

    PE
    Neither can I. So far I have refrained from commenting on any of the Kodachrome threads that have run here over time mainly because I was never an avid Kodachrome user and therefore do not have the strong attachment to the product that many folk do have. I've also commented somewhere else that I have studied just enough chemistry to understand how much I do not know, particularly about organic synthesis.

    It is surely time, as PE has suggested more than once, to close this thread. It is improbable that anyone is going to make Kodachrome processing chemicals in their basement lab or garden shed. The only way these chemicals could be made again is by someone with access to the expertise, money for facilities and therefore a strong commercial incentive. That incentive does not exist and will never exist again because the film is no longer being made.

    Those who have an urgent need to process already exposed Kodachrome might be better advised to mount a world- wide search for unused Kodak chemicals - there must be some somewhere - and if they can be obtained then try to find a way to use them in a hand process similar to that which Stephen Frizza has done. Those that are sitting on unexposed Kodachrome in the hope of using it need to take a reality check and put it to it's only remaining use - as an item of history. OzJohn

  5. #375
    Ken Nadvornick's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gerald C Koch View Post
    Many years ago the Dignan Newsletter published the formulas for all the K-12 and K-14 processing solutions.
    Dignan Photographic Report, 1975, Volume 3, p.91?

    Could be wrong... Just askin'...



    Ken
    "They are the proof that something was there and no longer is. Like a stain. And the stillness of them is boggling. You can turn away but when you come back they’ll still be there looking at you."

    — Diane Arbus, March 15, 1971, in response to a request for a brief statement about photographs

  6. #376
    clayne's Avatar
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    Unless everything has been documented process wise then the parties that be are only contributing to its final demise. Of course they're not making the film anymore and obviously very very few will even succeed. But to hold back information because "it's pointless" seems kind of anti-spirit here.
    Stop worrying about grain, resolution, sharpness, and everything else that doesn't have a damn thing to do with substance.

    http://www.flickr.com/kediwah

  7. #377

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    Quote Originally Posted by clayne View Post
    Unless everything has been documented process wise then the parties that be are only contributing to its final demise. Of course they're not making the film anymore and obviously very very few will even succeed. But to hold back information because "it's pointless" seems kind of anti-spirit here.
    I agree, as far as im concerned its history, and should be documented to preserve that.
    Thats what i intend to do with the wiki, document the formulas and the process, no need to document how to synthesise any molecule.
    The chemists can do that, if any are keen to go down that road, all they need to know is the composition of the molecules.

    Forget worring about safety of APUG members, its quite obvious that no one here is going to be tampering with any dangerous chemicals, we are photographers, not chemists, those that may be qualified in chemistry will likely be familiar with all necessary precautions etc.....
    The price for 2 grams of just the basic coupler would be enough to put most people off experimenting. Besides, im sure it would be possible to source the chemicals from china, they can pretty much reproduce any molecule over there, so let them play around!

    Anyway, Steve Frizza made do using the basic couplers and they did the trick, so i wouldnt go overboard trying to get the exact formula, unless there was an attempt to run a K-lab machine, which i expect is designed to run at different specs for the K-14 chemistry.

    Lets just forget about trying to process this film and turn our direction to documenting its history, let those who are dead set on processing it, make use of the information to help them on their "journey" if you can put it that way.

  8. #378

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    On the machine side of things, in the '70s I remember accompanying my father on trips around the countryside (Victoria, Aust) to install 'film processing machines'. We towed a tandem trailer with this beast on it in a wooden box. I don't know what process it was, but a bunch of guys in a backyard shed had cobbled these things together. It was pretty agricultural to look at. I think my father did the electronics as that was his hobby. My fondest memory was I used to hang around the workshop bending up scraps of plastic on a machine, amused me for hours So, it obviously wasn't a K-14 line, but several photolabs thought it was good enough to pay money for, so I guess I'm saying, mechanically, this sort of thing has been done before, just maybe not as extensive or complicated.

  9. #379
    Rudeofus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nzoomed View Post
    Thats what i intend to do with the wiki, document the formulas and the process, no need to document how to synthesise any molecule.
    The chemists can do that, if any are keen to go down that road, all they need to know is the composition of the molecules.
    I agree with this. There is no reason home amateurs start their own synthesis labs in their dark rooms. There may be professional synthesis labs, though, which can make these compounds for interested parties, expensive or not.
    Quote Originally Posted by Nzoomed View Post
    The price for 2 grams of just the basic coupler would be enough to put most people off experimenting.
    If you mean 4-Chloro-1-naphthol, that's not overly expensive at Sigma Aldrich.
    Quote Originally Posted by Nzoomed View Post
    Anyway, Steve Frizza made do using the basic couplers and they did the trick, so i wouldnt go overboard trying to get the exact formula
    Also remember that Steve Frizza runs a professional lab and tries to maintain very tight processing standards whenever he does something, just read his comments about Ilfochrome. In the case of Kodachrome, film will likely be aged by now and things won't turn out perfectly even in a properly dialed in K14 machine, if such a thing existed today. Chances are some Kodachrome owners are willing to relax a few expectations of perfection at this point in time, and in this case we have a good chance to get something going.
    Trying to be the best of whatever I am, even if what I am is no good.

  10. #380

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    Quote Originally Posted by Ken Nadvornick View Post
    Dignan Photographic Report, 1975, Volume 3, p.91?

    Could be wrong... Just askin'...



    Ken
    IIRC the formulas appeared over several months as there was a lot to publish. The formulas and process times were all from Kodak's literature supplied to commercial processors.
    A rock pile ceases to be a rock pile the moment a single man contemplates it, bearing within him the image of a cathedral.

    ~Antoine de Saint-Exupery



 

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