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  1. #451

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    Quote Originally Posted by Ken Nadvornick View Post
    You are correct Sal. Everyone does have a right to hold and express their individual opinions, including you.

    However, an implementation problem with that right arises when one's opinion, intentionally or otherwise, drifts to the point of opining my opinion is that everyone else should now hold my opinion. At that point the circular logic begins to fray substantially around the edges. Given the above out-of-character pejorative comment by you, I think you may be at or near that point in this exchange. And I don't think you realize it...
    One posts opinions in forums with the intent to convince others that those opinions are correct. Implicit in the process is a desire that, once convinced of the opinions' correctness, others will adopt them as their own. This is normal human behavior, not circular logic.

    Adding an invalid accusation characterizing what I've posted as pejorative to previous invalid accusations of intimidation is no more useful or productive than repeating fantasies.

  2. #452
    Ken Nadvornick's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sal Santamaura View Post
    One posts opinions in forums with the intent to convince others that those opinions are correct. Implicit in the process is a desire that, once convinced of the opinions' correctness, others will adopt them as their own. This is normal human behavior, not circular logic.
    Not always true either, I'm afraid...

    On this forum, as well as in my profession, I routinely solicit the opinions of others regarding non-factual matters precisely because I expect them to be different from my own. In that way I help to assure myself that I've not missed something on my side. I am not interested in determining whose opinion is "correct" because I've learned through experience that among many opinions each can carry varying degrees of correctness.

    The need to nail down which opinion is 100% correct so that all other opinions at a variance can be characterized as "incorrect" is not only an immature approach, it is dangerous as well. Dangerous in the sense that I run the risk of then surrounding myself only with those who will tell me exactly what I want to hear. Meaning, only opinions that match my interpretation of the "100% correct" answer.

    So the best compromise for me is to listen to the opinions of all, offer mine when I feel it might help further illuminate the discussion, and refrain from insisting that others must adopt my opinions. But in order for this to work, others must treat my opinions (that they may disagree with) in the same way.

    Since this meta-discussion has itself now drifted off topic, I will end my side of it here.

    I hope we can agree that the posters to this thread are now free to discuss Kodachrome, in any of its many facets, for as long as they find it interesting enough to continue typing. If you feel that a new thread is warranted, then by all means start it. But posters are still free to either transition to it, or remain here, as they see fit, and for as long as they see fit, without constantly being told to move on.

    I will leave the final word to you, if you feel you must have it.

    Ken
    "They are the proof that something was there and no longer is. Like a stain. And the stillness of them is boggling. You can turn away but when you come back they’ll still be there looking at you."

    — Diane Arbus, March 15, 1971, in response to a request for a brief statement about photographs

  3. #453

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    Quote Originally Posted by Ken Nadvornick View Post
    ...I run the risk of then surrounding myself only with those who will tell me exactly what I want to hear. Meaning, only opinions that match my interpretation of the "100% correct" answer...
    Red herring. I never suggested doing that.

    Quote Originally Posted by Ken Nadvornick View Post
    ...I hope we can agree that the posters to this thread are now free to discuss Kodachrome, in any of its many facets, for as long as they find it interesting enough to continue typing...
    Your implication that I've suggested they're not free to do so is also invalid. They've had that freedom all along. Just as I've been free to point out that perpetual, fantasy-based discussion, as opposed to action, is an exercise in futility.

    Quote Originally Posted by Ken Nadvornick View Post
    ...I will leave the final word to you, if you feel you must have it....
    An extraordinarily ironic technique. I've encountered few posters more intent on getting in the last word than you are.

    OK, now let's see who continues this thread with a report on their own Kodachrome processing attempts.

  4. #454
    Prest_400's Avatar
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    My bad, 46 pages!
    I did use Kodachrome a little, I miss it too and liked it.
    Quote Originally Posted by PKM-25 View Post
    I think nailing down a replacement for Ilfochrome would be a great idea, I had a nice exchange of emails with Christopher Burkett recently that was quite eye opening in terms of who ended up with the majority of the last run of that material. I am far more interested in printing a show from my exsisting Kodachromes than shooting and souping new ones.
    Reviving Ilfochrome (or a similar process) seems rather feasible.
    It called my attention reading H.Wilhelm's book on image permanency that if Kodak chose to pursue Dye Bleach instead of Chromogenic printing we would have been much better off when it comes down to permanency. AFAIK; Cibachrome is very long lasting in dark storage and has decent display time too.
    I'd have liked to see how it would have been if Ilford (Swiss) promoted its use more. Given digital tech (Lightjet printers) et al for correcting some of the quirks, it could have filled a niche for long lasting fine art printing. Drag down digital shooters in, and there is a big market.
    Recall reading it was quite complex to produce; How feasible to manufacture by some small company or endeavor, don't know.

    Sorry for the hijack, but Dan put this point and I thought it would be interesting about it.

  5. #455
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    Quote Originally Posted by Stephen Frizza View Post
    To Clarify this was my very first post which sparked this thread....

    "Just throwing it out there would anyone here be willing to pay $260 dollars per roll for Colour Kodachrome processing with a minimum of 5 rolls per order and payment before processing?"

    It was an expression of interest...an open ended question... an exploration of if anyone would pay such an amount. It was also a way of letting people know realistically how much at bare minimum it would cost to be feasible with not making a financial loss for materials.

    I feel people took this and ran with it as though i was launching this as a service....

    Enthusiastic that I had at least gotten a color result from experimenting, with further engineering it might be possible for me to do it as a service for small lengths of 35mm. Certainly not for motion film.

    If I ever do run Kodachrome as a colour service (which I certainly don't foresee any time soon) I will release a statement clearly and specifically stating as such.

    I don't mean to be rude to anyone here but there are many other photographic pursuits I have which I feel deserve far more of my time. Both for financial reasons and personal photographic enrichment. My biggest interest at this point in time (apart from running my lab) is developing a replacement pos to pos analog process to replace Ilfochrome. I'm also interested in exploring colour processes both in camera and in darkroom which are not dependent on materials or technology from Fuji, Kodak, Ilford, Agfa etc...
    Yes, and in your reply to the link to Facebook you said you had no intention of offering it as a service. Then you floated the question of interest, which is fair enough. Then PKM-25 indicated he had a lot of frozen film, you could use some of it for further testing, and he was interested and able to pay the price mentioned. This isn't about the MP film. Then you essentially said, "nah, sorry."

    I can understand that you may have toyed with the idea, floated the question of interest, then with only one person interested and willing to pay the price for something you could actually do (that is, not the MP film) you decided it wasn't worth it after all. But I can also understand PKM-25's disappointment with that.

    Oh yes, sorry for misspelling your name in my other posts. I shouldn't have been so lazy as not to look up thread.

  6. #456
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    Man, if the discussion of processing seemed tedious, the discussion on closing the thread was 10 times worse.

    IMO, if people continue their "fantasies" after others tell them it's unrealistic or that talk without action is useless, then let those people keep on and go do something else.
    Last edited by lxdude; 08-29-2013 at 08:28 PM. Click to view previous post history.
    I do use a digital device in my photographic pursuits when necessary.
    When someone rags on me for using film, I use a middle digit, upraised.

  7. #457
    Roger Cole's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Prest_400 View Post
    My bad, 46 pages!
    I did use Kodachrome a little, I miss it too and liked it.

    Reviving Ilfochrome (or a similar process) seems rather feasible.
    It called my attention reading H.Wilhelm's book on image permanency that if Kodak chose to pursue Dye Bleach instead of Chromogenic printing we would have been much better off when it comes down to permanency. AFAIK; Cibachrome is very long lasting in dark storage and has decent display time too.
    I'd have liked to see how it would have been if Ilford (Swiss) promoted its use more. Given digital tech (Lightjet printers) et al for correcting some of the quirks, it could have filled a niche for long lasting fine art printing. Drag down digital shooters in, and there is a big market.
    Recall reading it was quite complex to produce; How feasible to manufacture by some small company or endeavor, don't know.

    Sorry for the hijack, but Dan put this point and I thought it would be interesting about it.
    I guess my interest in a revived analog pos-pos process just hinges on its availability to the general darkroom worker (as well as things like price, quality of results and ease of use of course.) If it's something one guy with one lab makes himself for his clients, that's interesting but unless the results are really far different than what I can get by having my transparencies scanned and printed via Lightjet in many other places then it's of fairly limited interest to me personally. And, even if the results are far better or different than what I can get elsewhere, then the news still consists for practical purposes of an additional new venue to get my transparencies printed by someone else.

    Now if a materials maker can actually make and market the printing material (paper or Ilfochrome style plastic stuff or whatever) and chemicals for processing, for a process that I can do in my own darkroom as easily as I could Ilfochrome or Type R, with results at least as good, for a price no more, at the top end, than the already-rather-high price of Ilfochrome just before it went away, I'm VERY interested in that. But that seems pretty unlikely.
    Last edited by Roger Cole; 08-29-2013 at 06:16 PM. Click to view previous post history.

  8. #458

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    The results of a little sleuthing on my part:

    The person with the eBay handle "jel8080" continues to spend not hundreds but now what amounts to thousands of dollars on expired Kodachrome film of all kinds, even 126....now why would anyone do that?

    The person from my site who posted a few times with photos of a K-Lab who has not been heard from in awhile still has it safely stored, I talked to his partner on the phone a moment ago. I will use my contacts at Kodak to try to get both a user and a repair manual for it once I talk to him and find out it's specifics.

    That's my good deed for the day....

  9. #459
    Ken Nadvornick's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by PKM-25 View Post
    The person with the eBay handle "jel8080" continues to spend not hundreds but now what amounts to thousands of dollars on expired Kodachrome film of all kinds, even 126....now why would anyone do that?
    I've wondered exactly the same thing. And a common sense guess isn't difficult...



    [Edit: Ooow... I just had an evil thought pop into my head... You don't think... Naw... Hmm...]



    Ken
    Last edited by Ken Nadvornick; 08-29-2013 at 04:48 PM. Click to view previous post history. Reason: Added evil...
    "They are the proof that something was there and no longer is. Like a stain. And the stillness of them is boggling. You can turn away but when you come back they’ll still be there looking at you."

    — Diane Arbus, March 15, 1971, in response to a request for a brief statement about photographs

  10. #460
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    Well, I have tried to get the Kodak data sheet with process and formula details. It seems that Kodak took it down. Using wayback.com, I am informed that there is a block on that information. It is apparently unavailable. Therefore, unless someone has the PDF for us, the patent is the only source of information.

    And if no one is interested in trying to process Kodachrome, my offer of help still stands. I'm here. I'm not trying to herd cats.. I'm saying if you are hungry, there is food in the bowl.

    PE



 

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