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  1. #41
    Diapositivo's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by wogster View Post
    The problem with film, is that for about 50 years, they couldn't make it fast enough, so they developed larger and larger scale production facilities, when the market started to shrink, there was no way to shrink supply to meet the new levels of demand. For a while now, the only way to shrink supply has been to reduce the number of products and facilities. The largest user of film is still Hollywood, and print films are the ones most commonly used. This is changing though, and I would not be surprised to see at least one company close their coating facility in the next 3-4 years, if I were to guess, it will probably be the Kodak facility in Rochester. Because Ilford, A-G and Fuji will be enough to sustain the smaller market.
    In another thread the good news was pointed out that the possible end of motion picture film does not necessarily signify the probable end of still photography film, Kodak case aside.

    The reason for this is that Fujifilm (maybe also Agfa-Gevaert and the Chinese, I don't know) use the same coating machine(s) to coat motion picture film, still photography film, paper and maybe other materials. The demise of motion picture film would not in itself make the rest of the production economically unviable.

    The Kodak case is different. As explained by PE Kodak has its coating spread among several (two or three? I don't remember) coating facilities. One is devoted to paper (and is located in the UK going by memory), one to film. The coating facility in Rochester coats IIRC only MP film and photography film. For that coating facility the demise of MP film would pose, is my understanding, an industrial problem.

    What is interesting to note is that for Fujifilm and possibly other producers production of slide film and negative film will be economically viable even in case of MP film not being produced any more because photographic paper and other products will go on being produced on the same facilities.
    Fabrizio Ruggeri fine art photography site: http://fabrizio-ruggeri.artistwebsites.com
    Stock images at Imagebroker: http://www.imagebroker.com/#/search/ib_fbr

  2. #42
    Photo Engineer's Avatar
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    Slide film is very marginal right now, there being virtually no market at all. This point is missed by almost everyone.

    Kodak once made (may still for all I know) the most archival DVD/CD ever made, but it sold poorly due to cost. Everyone things that the penny CDs and DVDs are ok, even Hollywood I guess. So, the market keeps moving in that direction.

    IIRC, Kodak has a machine or two here in Rochester still in reserve that they could crank up to scale up or down in production, but for Ilford to move to color on an economical basis would require slide or curtain coating knowledge, it would need dryer capacity, it would need a line of dispersators, and it would need a lot of other ancillary equipment to move into modern color. There has to be a market to sustain the initial development costs and it just is not there. Go ahead and spin pipe dreams but you have to have a few million $$ to start up a color line.

    PE

  3. #43

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    Quote Originally Posted by Photo Engineer View Post
    Go ahead and spin pipe dreams but you have to have a few million $$ to start up a color line.

    PE
    Darn! I woulda had this if I'd won the Powerball Lottery LOL. Any investors wanna see if Simon would do this?
    ME Super

    Shoot more film.
    There are eight ways to put a slide into a projector tray. Seven of them are wrong.

  4. #44
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    Opinion? Agfa, Ferrania, Fuji, Kodak, Konica

    Quote Originally Posted by Henning Serger View Post
    Sorry, Paul, that is not correct. Agfa-Gevaert in Antwerp, Belgium, is the third biggest film manufacturer worldwide, only Kodak and Fujifilm are bigger.
    And as a normal consumer / photographer you can buy fresh film manufactured by them without problems. Several different BW and color film types are offered by Maco/Rollei-Film, and one film is also offered by Adox (CMS 20 II = Agfa HDP microfilm).



    Their last production runs were at the end of 2009 (at least one of their biggest long term customers told me that).

    Best regards,
    Henning
    You're saying I can get Agfa APX film still??


    ~Stone

    The Noteworthy Ones - Mamiya: 7 II, RZ67 Pro II / Canon: 1V, AE-1 / Kodak: No 1 Pocket Autographic, No 1A Pocket Autographic

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    ~Stone | "...of course, that's just my opinion. I could be wrong." ~Dennis Miller

  5. #45
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    Opinion? Agfa, Ferrania, Fuji, Kodak, Konica

    Quote Originally Posted by Photo Engineer View Post
    Paul;

    Film in master rolls is not frozen and does not keep forever! This just cannot be done. It is kept cold, for a limited time and then must be discarded.

    PE
    Except Techpan...


    ~Stone

    The Noteworthy Ones - Mamiya: 7 II, RZ67 Pro II / Canon: 1V, AE-1 / Kodak: No 1 Pocket Autographic, No 1A Pocket Autographic

    Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
    ~Stone | "...of course, that's just my opinion. I could be wrong." ~Dennis Miller

  6. #46
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    Opinion? Agfa, Ferrania, Fuji, Kodak, Konica

    Quote Originally Posted by Photo Engineer View Post
    Paul;

    You have missed one tiny point.

    All of these analog negatives are now being printed onto the new Kodak archival print film for storage, or they are being printed as separation B&W negatives or positives for storage. Hollywood is realizing that digital copies deteriorate much faster than analog originals and the duplication and storage costs of digital are almost 10X higher than for analog.

    PE
    Being that I work in the movie industry I can vouch this is true, I can also affirm that DP's and Camera Op/Cam Assist's all know the value of film, they all laugh when people talk about shooting on digital and know they film's quality even I'm "megapixels" is way higher than current digital movie cameras. Yes the small budget movies ($1,000,000-$20,000,000) are using digital because its more effective for their proposes but film is still king on any large budget movie that needs that quality, and yes they are archiving it on film, and yes they are projection it on digital as a final post process step.

    And Kodak has too much B&W competition, color is their game.


    ~Stone

    The Noteworthy Ones - Mamiya: 7 II, RZ67 Pro II / Canon: 1V, AE-1 / Kodak: No 1 Pocket Autographic, No 1A Pocket Autographic

    Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
    ~Stone | "...of course, that's just my opinion. I could be wrong." ~Dennis Miller

  7. #47
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    Quote Originally Posted by Photo Engineer View Post
    Paul;

    You have missed one tiny point.

    All of these analog negatives are now being printed onto the new Kodak archival print film for storage, or they are being printed as separation B&W negatives or positives for storage. Hollywood is realizing that digital copies deteriorate much faster than analog originals and the duplication and storage costs of digital are almost 10X higher than for analog.

    PE
    The cost of storing 4K digital masters on digital tape was ~ 1,100% higher than the cost of storing YCM film masters before the new Kodak archival print film came out....

  8. #48
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    Quote Originally Posted by georg16nik View Post
    The cost of storing 4K digital masters on digital tape was ~ 1,100% higher than the cost of storing YCM film masters before the new Kodak archival print film came out....
    One of the problems with digital tape, is that it's tape, and tape is not designed for longer term storage, it's probably fine for financial records that need to be kept for a decade or so, but it's not designed for photographic storage, where an image could need to be stored for centuries. I have in my collection a photograph that is almost a century old, it was taken sometime between 1914 and 1918, I know this because it was taken during WW-I. it's a little faded, this is a scan I did a couple of years ago, other then some cropping it's pretty much as is, including the colour.:



    Show me ANY digital media that can be absolutely guaranteed to last at least 94 years! We have movies on film from that era, where you could take the negatives out and run them through a modern film printer and have a copy in at least as good a condition as the photo above. We have no digital media to prove it will last as long. Yes that is a German uniform, and the subject is my grandfather. I plan on giving the print to my daughter (who just turned 1) when she is older, and yes I expect it to be in a similar condition.
    Paul Schmidt
    See my Blog at http://clickandspin.blogspot.com

    The greatest advance in photography in the last 100 years is not digital, it's odourless stop bath....

  9. #49
    georg16nik's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by wogster View Post
    .....
    Show me ANY digital media that can be absolutely guaranteed to last at least 94 years!
    Come again?
    Where did I wrote such thing?

    Quote Originally Posted by georg16nik View Post
    The cost of storing 4K digital masters on digital tape was ~ 1,100% higher than the cost of storing YCM film masters before the new Kodak archival print film came out....
    btw: I know the value of old photographs.
    We have family book, published in thousands of copies. Some of the photos running within the family are much older than WWI.

  10. #50
    Diapositivo's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by wogster View Post
    One of the problems with digital tape, is that it's tape, and tape is not designed for longer term storage, it's probably fine for financial records that need to be kept for a decade or so, but it's not designed for photographic storage, where an image could need to be stored for centuries. I have in my collection a photograph that is almost a century old, it was taken sometime between 1914 and 1918, I know this because it was taken during WW-I. it's a little faded, this is a scan I did a couple of years ago, other then some cropping it's pretty much as is, including the colour.:



    Show me ANY digital media that can be absolutely guaranteed to last at least 94 years! We have movies on film from that era, where you could take the negatives out and run them through a modern film printer and have a copy in at least as good a condition as the photo above. We have no digital media to prove it will last as long. Yes that is a German uniform, and the subject is my grandfather. I plan on giving the print to my daughter (who just turned 1) when she is older, and yes I expect it to be in a similar condition.
    Very nice picture. What is it that he keeps at his neck? Seems like some kind of instrument. Maybe a portable range-finder?

    I suppose your grandfather was an officer, wasn't he? (spike and decoration on the helmet).
    Fabrizio Ruggeri fine art photography site: http://fabrizio-ruggeri.artistwebsites.com
    Stock images at Imagebroker: http://www.imagebroker.com/#/search/ib_fbr

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