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  1. #31
    David Lyga's Avatar
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    Paul, your milliliters are correct but let's say 1 + 14 (i.e., not '15') in order to avoid confusion. This (1 + 14) 'adds up' to the '15' working solution.

    (1:15 is ambiguous both because of the colon and because of the '15'. 'What does it mean'? Does it mean 1 'to' 15? Some interprete that to mean '1 plus 15'. Some interprete it to mean '1' makes a total of '15'.)

    Of course, Paul, we are assuming that brands other than Flexicolor will do what Flexicolor will do. Will that be a costly assumption? I think that it will work but I cannot guarantee that it will. - David Lyga
    Last edited by David Lyga; 01-02-2013 at 02:40 PM. Click to view previous post history.

  2. #32

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    Oops........

    Quote Originally Posted by David Lyga View Post
    Paul, your milliliters are correct but let's say 1 + 14 (i.e., not '15') in order to avoid confusion. This (1 + 14) 'adds up' to the '15' working solution.

    (1:15 is ambiguous both because of the colon and because of the '15'. 'What does it mean'? Does it mean 1 'to' 15? Some interprete that to mean '1 plus 15'. Some interprete it to mean '1' makes a total of '15'.)

    Of course, Paul, we are assuming that brands other than Flexicolor will do what Flexicolor will do. Will that be a costly assumption? I think that it will work but I cannot guarantee that it will. - David Lyga
    There's a reason I shyed from the math heavy occupations. So, add 7% to my figures.

    I think most of us understand that what worked with Flexicolor may not with other brands. However, they all have to use CD-4, so at worst, the differences may just require a time/temp tweak. And for those of us who don't print but scan, even color shifts are of no concern.

  3. #33
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    Quote Originally Posted by Paul Verizzo View Post
    There's a reason I shyed from the math heavy occupations. So, add 7% to my figures.

    I think most of us understand that what worked with Flexicolor may not with other brands. However, they all have to use CD-4, so at worst, the differences may just require a time/temp tweak. And for those of us who don't print but scan, even color shifts are of no concern.
    It would depend on the whether the colour shift is linear or not, for example say at a density of .1 your shift is 4M, and at a density of .99 it's also 4M, the shift is linear, and does not matter. However suppose at a density of .1 your shift is 4M, and .2 is 3M,1Y, and .7 it's 5M,2Y and at .99 it's 7M,4Y, this isn't linear, because the lighter parts in a print will be more affected then dark areas, and not evenly affected, that would be a bear to correct digitally.
    Paul Schmidt
    See my Blog at http://clickandspin.blogspot.com

    The greatest advance in photography in the last 100 years is not digital, it's odourless stop bath....

  4. #34
    Terry Christian's Avatar
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    Thanks so much for the breakdown of your process, David!

    Some folks were asking about using Kodak Flexicolor chemicals. Here's my thread about my own adventures in doing so:
    http://www.apug.org/forums/forum40/1...-critique.html

    Since then I've bought the developer starter in the hopes that it'll help to even out the inconsistencies I had, but I haven't tried it as of yet; I probably won't be shooting/developing any color until spring.

  5. #35
    David Lyga's Avatar
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    Honestly, I do not think that you need the starter Terry. I think that it just slows down the development process so that labs, that re-use chemicals can have greater consistency at the beginning, before bromide enters the solution from film having been developed. Be forewarned, but try it if you wish. - David Lyga
    Last edited by David Lyga; 01-03-2013 at 08:25 AM. Click to view previous post history.

  6. #36
    Terry Christian's Avatar
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    I offer to show results of my experiments with color developer dilution

    I'm inclined to agree, David. I was getting some strange and inconsistent color-shifting, and a commenter recommended the starter.

    Keep in mind, though, that I was using very old chemical concentrates, so my first guess would be that my Part C concentrate is weak due to age. It's too early to tell currently, as I've only mixed up one 1L batch (the original, without starter). The non-shifted negs look perfect, though!

  7. #37

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    Quote Originally Posted by Terry Christian View Post
    I'm inclined to agree, David. I was getting some strange and inconsistent color-shifting, and a commenter recommended the starter.

    Keep in mind, though, that I was using very old chemical concentrates, so my first guess would be that my Part C concentrate is weak due to age. It's too early to tell currently, as I've only mixed up one 1L batch (the original, without starter). The non-shifted negs look perfect, though!
    I'm inclined to think "misuse" of the chemicals, rather than age related matters. If there isn't a "Use by" date on the boxes, the concentrates are stable. And even if there was a date, you can be sure it's very, very conservative, even to the point of not at all. Does Rollei or Tetenal or (liquid) Unicolor put "Use by" dates on their packaging? Kodak, et. al., would definitely spend a goodly amount of research and money to prevent disaster.

    That you left Starter out would fall into my hypothetical category of "misuse." W/o looking at the MSDS and knowing what chemicals are in it, I'm going to make a guess and say that it functions somewhat in the spirit of keeping a bit of old B&W developer in the next batch.

  8. #38
    David Lyga's Avatar
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    I'd like this 'starter' stuff further explored. My 'official' response at this point (and through discussions with lab owners) is that starter is merely a 'brake' on the (initial, pre-bromide infused) developer energy. Nothing more. Nothing to do with colors other than that brought about through extent of development (i.e., contrast).

    If I am incorrect I want to know. Terry, the color shifting you were getting could have been the result of either too much development (contrasty, too MUCH hue differentiation) or too little development (drab, lifeless, too LITTLE hue differentiation). But I am certainly willing to learn more on this topic. - David Lyga
    Last edited by David Lyga; 01-03-2013 at 03:20 PM. Click to view previous post history.

  9. #39

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    Well, that was easy (re Flexicolor starter)

    MSDS: https://www.freestylephoto.biz/pdf/m...rter_1_Qt..pdf

    Ingredients:

    3. Composition/information on ingredients
    Weight % Components - (CAS-No.)
    10 - 15 Potassium carbonate (584-08-7)
    1 - 5 Pentetic acid, pentasodium salt (140-01-2)
    1 - 5 Sodium sulphite (7757-83-7)
    1 - 5 Sodium bromide (7647-15-6)

    pH: 9.5

    At first investigative blush it would seem to me that w/o the Starter, one has a crippled Flexicolor that might display unwanted properties.

  10. #40
    Terry Christian's Avatar
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    That you left Starter out would fall into my hypothetical category of "misuse."
    That's why I'm not jumping to any conclusions.

    If there isn't a "Use by" date on the boxes, the concentrates are stable.... Does Rollei or Tetenal or (liquid) Unicolor put "Use by" dates on their packaging?
    The way-old Kodak Flexicolor liquid concentrates I have (just bottles, no box), do not have expirations on any of them. The Rollei Digibase home kits I've used before don't, either. I've never used Tetenal, and the only Unicolor kits I've seen have been powder, with no expiration. I'll be posting a picture of the bottles in the other thread referenced above in anyone's curious.

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