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  1. #161
    Ken Nadvornick's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Photo Engineer View Post
    You are absolutely right Ken. I hope that people are happy with that product if it comes to fruition.
    Compared with the specter of never making another color transparency film photograph again in their lifetimes?

    They'll be thrilled beyond belief!

    Which, to bring things full circle in this thread, may someday (but not yet today) equate to a small niche market opportunity that may be available to any right-sized film manufacturer with access to the technical resources required to make that happen, should future (or as we've heard, possibly even current?) market realities allow for it.

    Such a company would be derelict in their responsibilities as a business not to have at least discussed the eventuality. Words uttered at long-term strategy meetings don't really cost anything. Words NOT uttered at those same meetings can, as we've seen over the last 5+ years, cost everything.

    Ken
    "When making a portrait, my approach is quite the same as when I am portraying a rock. I do not wish to impose my personality upon the sitter, but, keeping myself open to receive reactions from his own special ego, record this with nothing added: except of course when I am working professionally, when money enters in,—then for a price, I become a liar..."

    — Edward Weston, Daybooks, Vol. II, February 2, 1932

  2. #162
    Ken Nadvornick's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sal Santamaura View Post
    But compared to the real competition (d******), it could be.
    That's each individual film photographer's call to make. As such I can only speak for myself, and it's not real competition for me. If color film dies, I will simply move entirely to black-and-white film. If black-and-white film dies, I will coat glass plates using PE's reportedly excellent book/DVD resource.* But I will not move to digital imaging as a replacement for photography.

    To the extent that there may be a sufficiently large group of others like me, a possible niche market may exist for follow-up color film products after the existing over-capacity players have exited the stage. Determination as to whether such a group exists will be part of the due diligence required before taking any decision to move forward to address such a market.

    If reports are true, however, it sounds like at least one Italian company may have actually moved beyond that due diligence stage.

    Only time will tell...

    Ken

    * Don't tell him I said that. I don't want him discovering that I might actually be a decent fellow...
    "When making a portrait, my approach is quite the same as when I am portraying a rock. I do not wish to impose my personality upon the sitter, but, keeping myself open to receive reactions from his own special ego, record this with nothing added: except of course when I am working professionally, when money enters in,—then for a price, I become a liar..."

    — Edward Weston, Daybooks, Vol. II, February 2, 1932

  3. #163
    Ken Nadvornick's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Michael R 1974 View Post
    Sorry but we're talking about analog photography in a digital world, so yes the glass is half empty. Sorry to be a downer...
    Every person's perception is, by definition, their own reality. None is more right or wrong than any other. If that's your comfort zone, then I respect that. Even if I don't agree with it.



    Ken
    "When making a portrait, my approach is quite the same as when I am portraying a rock. I do not wish to impose my personality upon the sitter, but, keeping myself open to receive reactions from his own special ego, record this with nothing added: except of course when I am working professionally, when money enters in,—then for a price, I become a liar..."

    — Edward Weston, Daybooks, Vol. II, February 2, 1932

  4. #164
    Photo Engineer's Avatar
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    Well, I have lead you into a trap.

    The E6 film might be as good as a '60s product, but digital is going to be a "today" product. How will they compare?

    Chances are that digital might win. It will not compared to a Kodak or Fuji product but compare it to a Farrania product.

    PE

  5. #165

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    Quote Originally Posted by Photo Engineer View Post
    Well, I have lead you into a trap.

    The E6 film might be as good as a '60s product, but digital is going to be a "today" product. How will they compare?

    Chances are that digital might win. It will not compared to a Kodak or Fuji product but compare it to a Farrania product.

    PE
    HAHA PE... you're opinion that kodak and fuji compare to digital :-P it's all relative of course on your process and your perspective. But I ask you, why is lomography doing so well if their stuff is WORSE than the 60's film? hmmm?

  6. #166

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    Quote Originally Posted by Photo Engineer View Post
    Remember that Ferrania was a 3M subsidiary for a while until they were spun back off again due to low sales. They were a tiny player and I knew some of their R&D people. Good people, but the film was mediocre at the time I checked it out. If it is "frozen" at that time period, expect a 1970s or 1970s film compared to today.

    PE
    Actually, I think Ferrania did advance and gain some ground with their FG and FG Plus emulsions during the five or so years before they ceased production. While they still had more grain than equivalent Fuji and Kodak offerings, they did have the fairly saturated colors and 'edge effects' of modern consumer color negative films, very unlike a color negative film circa 1970. However, they still retained their fondness for earth tones such as brown and orange, and the strange way Ferrania film has always rendered bodies of water; almost painting-like. The odd film out was their 200 ISO; it did seem to be older technology and did not match the rest of the family. I still have many rolls of FG Plus 100 in the freezer.
    Last edited by Ten301; 07-24-2013 at 11:47 PM. Click to view previous post history.

  7. #167
    Ken Nadvornick's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Photo Engineer View Post
    Well, I have lead you into a trap.

    The E6 film might be as good as a '60s product, but digital is going to be a "today" product. How will they compare?

    Chances are that digital might win. It will not compared to a Kodak or Fuji product but compare it to a Farrania product.
    Aww... not a trap, really.

    A trap requires bait to work successfully. And for me digital is not sufficiently tasty enough to induce me to step into the maw. Tasty enough for a significant slice of the remaining color shooters? I would think that by this late date most of the fence-sitters have long since cast their lot. But maybe not. Again, time will tell.

    Stone's point above carries some weight here. Both Lomography and Impossible Project have successfully circumvented their respective lack of quality issues by appealing to other, more fundamental desires of their respective target markets. Primarily, that burning desire of younger people to differentiate themselves from all the other young people they see. Analog film photography accomplishes this stratification nicely for some of them. And profitably for both companies, if reports are to be believed. Lemons into lemonade.

    This is the style of target demographic that will, I think, possibly provide the critical mass for a small post-EK, post-Fuji color film aftermarket niche. Those who want to be—or want to appear to be—outside the now all-digital masses. This includes both amateurs and professionals.

    Film will never again be about the millions of children's birthday parties cycling through 52 times each year on Saturday afternoons. But it might be that there are enough residual film enthusiasts, and self-proclaimed outcasts, and a few new younger ones,* to provide a correctly right-sized operation with the base it needs to successfully have a go at a smaller, but still workably profitable, film manufacturing company.

    Technical issues? Yep. Probably plenty. But that's what the people in businesses do. They figure out ways around the obstacles and get on with it.

    Hey, ever think that maybe those guys at Ferrania ran he numbers for their shot at the ring and decided to jump in right now before a reconstituted Kodak film selling business could take hold. Maybe they know that the niche is not ever going to be very big, and if they can get a market share toe hold before the new Kodak venture does they just might lock up enough of it to succeed.

    Speculation? Sure. But not unreasonable, I think.

    Ken

    * I was at an airshow two weekends ago. Had the pristine 4x5 Crown with me. After finishing with this beautiful 1936 Lockheed Electra 12A Junior I sat down in some shade. A fellow and his son were there. The dad struck up a conversation, so I gave him the short story of the camera and how it works. All the while the boy, maybe 14, watched intently. As I get up to leave I hear him ask his dad "You know that old Pentax camera you have? Yes. Can you still buy film for that?" Dad looks up at me. I slowly nod "Yes" with an ear-to-ear grin, sit back down, and give them the scoop on how and where to buy it. (Freestyle, do I get a commission?)

    This is where the future photographic film niche market will come from...
    "When making a portrait, my approach is quite the same as when I am portraying a rock. I do not wish to impose my personality upon the sitter, but, keeping myself open to receive reactions from his own special ego, record this with nothing added: except of course when I am working professionally, when money enters in,—then for a price, I become a liar..."

    — Edward Weston, Daybooks, Vol. II, February 2, 1932

  8. #168

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    I hate living in a day and time when everything I have spent a lifetime getting good at is all dying. I don't want to "save" film from extinction; I do not want to be an activist.--I just want it to be there. I abhor the activist mentality, and will not be one on this subject either. If the rest of the world wants to walk around with their pants pulled down and a cellphone pocket god, I will turn my sore eyes in another direction. I have no intention of participating in their careless lifestyle.
    Last edited by Tom1956; 07-25-2013 at 12:04 AM. Click to view previous post history.

  9. #169

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    Quote Originally Posted by Tom1956 View Post
    I hate living in a day and time when everything I have spent a lifetime getting good at is all dying. I don't want to "save" film from extinction; I do not want to be an activist.--I just want it to be there. I abhor the activist mentality, and will not be one on this subject either. If the rest of the world wants to walk around with their pants pulled down and a cellphone pocket god, I will turn my sore eyes in another direction. I have no intention of participating in their careless lifestyle.
    You better stop having sex then too...

  10. #170
    Steve Smith's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by StoneNYC View Post
    You better stop having sex then too...
    Do people still do that?!!!


    Steve.
    "People who say things won't work are a dime a dozen. People who figure out how to make things work are worth a fortune" - Dave Rat.



 

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