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  1. #221

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    Quote Originally Posted by railwayman3 View Post
    Unless you have inside knowledge of Poundland, you're making huge assumptions about them and about Agfa.
    No inside word on Poundland, just a working knowledge of manufacture and retailing. If we see large stocks of in-date currently produced film re-appearing, you win.

    The problem for a manufacturer like Ilford, is the colour market is niche and niche markets are unpredictable. Current film users are split into those buying better and those buying different. 'Better' users prepared to pay the market rate for technologically sophisticated products like Portra 400, Ilford's monochrome products, Fuji's transparency film, etc. Include larger format buyers in this category.

    'Different' buyers want the film look and ability to use classic equipment but are relatively undiscerning about absolute quality. They are typically film scanners, not printers, and will tweak characteristics in or out in post production. Such buyers are highly price conscious. They're the group over-stockers and re-branders are looking for. The second market relies on a healthy quality sector. The disappearance of various high tech films, some of quite recent vintage historically speaking, suggests there is no longer a sufficiently large number of buyers to maintain production in that sector. The success of Lomography points to the opposite being true, manufacturers are more likely to make money on re-branded vintage products than innovative ones.

    Never say never, but in current market conditions I see no reason why Ilford would want to get caught between a disappearing bespoke colour negative market, and retro/hipster brands, with fire sale merchants undercutting the middle.

  2. #222
    Steve Smith's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by clayne View Post
    That's got nothing to do with risk and everything to do with the greed of overly rich people who take pride in selling their country's assets and innovations to the best 3rd world investor they can find.
    Well, over here it was more to do with not wanting to modernise and being complacent with the products they were already making and the equipment and processes/working practices in the factories.


    Steve.
    "People who say things won't work are a dime a dozen. People who figure out how to make things work are worth a fortune" - Dave Rat.

  3. #223

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    Quote Originally Posted by Steve Smith View Post
    Well, over here it was more to do with not wanting to modernise and being complacent with the products they were already making and the equipment and processes/working practices in the factories.
    Steve.
    If a single factor can be attributed to the failure of British manufacturing, it's lack of management. UK companies that are well managed tend to be successful globally. Sadly, too many managers looked no further than their next bonus.

  4. #224
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    Quote Originally Posted by Simon R Galley View Post
    Well some interesting posts.

    Lets put it this way, I see things in a very black and white way.

    As an FYI Ciba Geigy bought ILFORD as they needed the technology and knowledge to coat CIBACHROME one of the most difficult complex coated photo 'paper' products ever.....SDB Silver Dye Bleach process. When all the colour photographs in all the world are faded to nothing only CIBACHROMES will be left.

    Simon ILFORD Photo / HARMAN technology Limited :
    So basically you're saying Ilford has the ability to coat color film (even the most complex kind) but will most likely choose not to..?

    Can you say that, if all color E-6 is gone, you will consider it? please! Haha

    Thank you for keeping Ilford solvent and keeping film prices at such good and fair prices (including 4x5, I'll almost exclusively be shooting Ilford in LF because the prices are fair).


    Sent w/ iPhone using Tapatalk
    ~Stone | "...of course, that's just my opinion. I could be wrong." ~Dennis Miller

  5. #225
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    Quote Originally Posted by Simon R Galley View Post
    Well some interesting posts.

    Lets put it this way, I see things in a very black and white way.

    As an FYI Ciba Geigy bought ILFORD as they needed the technology and knowledge to coat CIBACHROME one of the most difficult complex coated photo 'paper' products ever.....SDB Silver Dye Bleach process. When all the colour photographs in all the world are faded to nothing only CIBACHROMES will be left.

    Simon ILFORD Photo / HARMAN technology Limited :
    Um, not quite. What about the dye transfer ones? Carbon prints? Even the best modern ink jet materials exceed Ciba - and I liked Ciba a lot and it was certainly longer lasting than the chromogenic materials of its day, but not the champion.

  6. #226

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    Quote Originally Posted by Tom1956 View Post
    I'd say Kodak film was generally higher priced than any of the others for the most part. But you've got to ask yourself a question. Have you ever heard of ANYTHING defective from them? In 50 years, I haven't. You're bound to think it had to happen somewhere sometime, but I've never heard of it. They print this disclaimer I practically know by heart after all these years: "This product will be replaced in manufacturing, labeling, or packaging..." I always rolled my eyes at it. Seemed almost absurd to even have to print that, because it doesn't happen. Not that I've ever heard of. So, it's higher. When the stakes are high, you can count on it. Can't coun't on a lot of other things, but THAT you can. Plus the fact that the state of New York is also undoubtedly run by tax-addicts.

    It did happen to me once. I ran into a bad roll of Kodak film. It was the summer of 1982 and I had just put a roll of 126 in my X-15F, I was out doing my usual snapshots and noticed that the counter wasn't moving. Somehow the film wasn't attached to the take up spool. I put the film in an envelope with a hand written letter, a week later Kodak sent back a letter of apology and 2 cartridges of 24 exposure film. The one I sent them was a 12 exposure cartridge.

  7. #227

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    Dear Roger,

    I always enjoy your balanced and fair posts, carbon Yes but regarding the 'comparison' between CIBACHROME using AZO mineral pigments and any inkjet ink and media combination from any manufacturer I believe 100% what would last and what would not. But we should leave it at that and hopefully have the opportunity to debate it sometime in the future in person, but with the universal mediator of beer being present......

    On a lighter note I remember very early in the 90's when we were looking at polymer type coatings for early continuous inkjet printers ( made by IRIS in the USA ) our director of R&D gave us a big presentation....all very exciting.... then someone asked about the image longevity ( meaning fading ) he looked skyward and said 'in direct sunlight it will fade by about 50% by wednesday, but to be fair I'm not absolutely sure if thats this wednesday or next wednesday.....'

    R&D got to love them...

    Simon ILFORD Photo / HARMAN technology Limited :

  8. #228

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    Quote Originally Posted by blockend View Post
    No inside word on Poundland, just a working knowledge of manufacture and retailing. If we see large stocks of in-date currently produced film re-appearing, you win.
    No big deal, but the last films I bought at Poundland were 3+ years in date. I think my point was that there is a difference between "bankrupt stock" shops and the Poundland business model (not unlike the Lidl/Aldi model). This relies on large orders to suppliers and consequent low prices.....if you consider films, the marginal cost of manufacturing, say, 100,000 films is probably pence per film, but if this is shipped out in small orders via a structure of wholesalers and small dealers, each wanting their share of expenses and profit, the retail price may well have to be £3-£4 per film. Put the same 100,000 films in one truck to Poundland head warehouse, sell at £1 each with minimum overheads, and the manufacturer and retailer each end up with the same profit per unit.

    Not saying that this is the same with every item in Poundland/Lidl/Aldi, but many lines in these stores are negotiated on these large-quantity contract basis direct from factory to retailer, with the same products and special offers in every store in Europe. High volumes, marginal cost production, minimum distribution costs, and in many cases customers tempted to buy items which they would probably not buy at "normal" retail prices.

  9. #229
    AgX
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    Quote Originally Posted by Simon R Galley View Post
    ... carbon Yes but regarding the 'comparison' between CIBACHROME using AZO mineral pigments and any inkjet ink and media combination from any manufacturer...

    What are "AZO mineral pigments"?
    Or is there a comma missing?

  10. #230

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    Quote Originally Posted by railwayman3 View Post
    I think my point was that there is a difference between "bankrupt stock" shops and the Poundland business model (not unlike the Lidl/Aldi model).
    I agree. My observations are based on what seems to have happened with Poundland film. First there was Kodacolor 36exp, then 24exp of which no more has been seen. Then the same with Agfa Vista, of which some shops still have 24 exposure rolls in stock. At the speed the 36 exposure rolls sold, internet buzz and the speed it reappeared on auction sites, many people were left wanting. If Poundland could get their hands on £1 film easily, it would have been one of their best selling lines. The fact none has re-appeared suggests it was a one-off purchase.

    Maybe if another few hundred thousand Brand-X turn up in a warehouse somewhere it'll end up on Poundland's shelves, but I think it's overstocks and will appear on a sporadic basis, if at all. Fine for bulk buying and filling the freezer, but not a model I'd like to base my film purchasing on.



 

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