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  1. #21
    clayne's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ken Nadvornick View Post
    Look how quickly the black-and-white user base migrated over to Harman. Migrated even away from the staggeringly high-quality (remaining) choices available from Kodak, et al.
    That's a pretty big generalization there. It's not like the "black and white user base" completely abandoned Kodak and Fuji. Last I checked, Tri-X and Tmax are still being sold and used by many.
    Stop worrying about grain, resolution, sharpness, and everything else that doesn't have a damn thing to do with substance.

    http://www.flickr.com/kediwah

  2. #22
    Photo Engineer's Avatar
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    A while back, Simon Galley answered this very question on APUG. He said that Ilford (Harman) had no intention to enter the color film market. They did make Ilfochrome dye bleach paper for the Swiss IIRC and it was a pain to produce.

    They do not have the equipment nor the capacity to coat color products on a WW scale, and expansion is expensive for this sort of thing. Kodak has a plant at Harrow which could do the job if Ilford (harman) leased time. IDK how that would work though.

    BTW, Kodak Endura paper is made at Harrow and the boxes are marked "color" not "colour". It saves a pretty pence by leaving out one useless letter.

    PE

  3. #23
    Ken Nadvornick's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by clayne View Post
    That's a pretty big generalization there. It's not like the "black and white user base" completely abandoned Kodak and Fuji. Last I checked, Tri-X and Tmax are still being sold and used by many.
    Perhaps.

    But then on the other hand, it's not like Harman continues to slowly but surely discontinue products from their film lines either. Large numbers of Ilford brand b&w users are not migrating to Kodak due to a perception of greater long-term film product availability.

    What was that about "1000 cuts?"

    Ken
    "When making a portrait, my approach is quite the same as when I am portraying a rock. I do not wish to impose my personality upon the sitter, but, keeping myself open to receive reactions from his own special ego, record this with nothing added: except of course when I am working professionally, when money enters in,—then for a price, I become a liar..."

    — Edward Weston, Daybooks, Vol. II, February 2, 1932

  4. #24
    Ken Nadvornick's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Photo Engineer View Post
    A while back, Simon Galley answered this very question on APUG. He said that Ilford (Harman) had no intention to enter the color film market.
    That's why I said "absolutely not." Today would indeed be a horrible point in time.

    But what about five years into the future, as opposed to "a while back." Things change. Changes come unexpectedly. And usually from the least expected directions. (Just ask Mr. Perez.)

    How long was that recent Kodak motion picture stock contract supposed to last? How about after that expires and the theater conversions are complete and all projection is done digitally. How about then?

    Or how about after the final Portra film line has eventually been discontinued and there are no other still photography color options left? How about then?

    It's dangerous to assume that the world will always be exactly as it is/was at any given moment in history.

    Ken
    "When making a portrait, my approach is quite the same as when I am portraying a rock. I do not wish to impose my personality upon the sitter, but, keeping myself open to receive reactions from his own special ego, record this with nothing added: except of course when I am working professionally, when money enters in,—then for a price, I become a liar..."

    — Edward Weston, Daybooks, Vol. II, February 2, 1932

  5. #25
    clayne's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ken Nadvornick View Post
    Perhaps.

    But then on the other hand, it's not like Harman continues to slowly but surely discontinue products from their film lines either. Large numbers of Ilford brand b&w users are not migrating to Kodak due to a perception of greater long-term film product availability.

    What was that about "1000 cuts?"
    I'm not saying I disagree Ken - I'm saying try to be less black and white about it. ;-)
    Stop worrying about grain, resolution, sharpness, and everything else that doesn't have a damn thing to do with substance.

    http://www.flickr.com/kediwah

  6. #26
    Photo Engineer's Avatar
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    There are some scenes that cry for color but are shot in B&W. A beautiful field of coiled grasses becomes bland in B&W but would be beautiful in color. I see this so many times on APUG. Don't forget color!

    As for in the future, if Kodak and Fuji left color, it would be for a reason. That reason is cost and ROI. At that point it would be futile for Ilford to enter color.

    PE

  7. #27

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    Advertising!

  8. #28
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tom1956 View Post
    Advertising!
    To whom?

    People who no longer have TVs or radios, don't read newspapers and don't even have a computer outside of their phone?

    They are where the majority of the "photography" market is heading.
    Matt

    “Photography is a complex and fluid medium, and its many factors are not applied in simple sequence. Rather, the process may be likened to the art of the juggler in keeping many balls in the air at one time!”

    Ansel Adams, from the introduction to The Negative - The New Ansel Adams Photography Series / Book 2

  9. #29
    Ken Nadvornick's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Photo Engineer View Post
    As for in the future, if Kodak and Fuji left color, it would be for a reason. That reason is cost and ROI.
    Absolutely. Cost and (lack of sufficient) ROI at their required minimum production scales. But is it totally and completely impossible to create any color film—either new or reengineered existing—that could be reliably produced at a significantly smaller scale by a third party? Is it truly a figurative choice between either the whole photographic world must use color film to make it minimally viable to produce, or else nothing at all is even possible?

    Quote Originally Posted by Photo Engineer View Post
    At that point it would be futile for Ilford to enter color.
    Would it be futile if they had the entire residual market for color film to themselves? All others had exited that market. All color film was out of production. And they could do it profitably at a significantly smaller scale. Or is color film just so inherently difficult to engineer and produce that the expertise and process required are simply beyond Harman's technical capabilities, now or in the future?

    Ken
    Last edited by Ken Nadvornick; 07-22-2013 at 12:16 AM. Click to view previous post history. Reason: Damn hyphens...
    "When making a portrait, my approach is quite the same as when I am portraying a rock. I do not wish to impose my personality upon the sitter, but, keeping myself open to receive reactions from his own special ego, record this with nothing added: except of course when I am working professionally, when money enters in,—then for a price, I become a liar..."

    — Edward Weston, Daybooks, Vol. II, February 2, 1932

  10. #30

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    Quote Originally Posted by Michael R 1974 View Post
    I tend to worry. I don't think there is a future for analog colour materials so I really wouldn't want to see a great B&W manufacturer anywhere near it.
    I don't either and I don't think Harman would even contemplate making colour film for the tiny residual market that will remain when Kodak and Fuji decide to quit. Harman is the dominant player in monochrome which I believe will be the only segment of mass-marketed film to survive into the next decade. Historically, colour was never a good news story for Ilford and I cannot see why Harman would revisit it thereby risking the excellent mono business they have created out of the remnants of the old Ilford. OzJohn

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