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  1. #51
    Ken Nadvornick's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Photo Engineer View Post
    Ken, you obviously are not a chemist...
    No, I am not.

    But the post really had nothing whatsoever to do with chemistry, or film-making...



    Ken
    "They are the proof that something was there and no longer is. Like a stain. And the stillness of them is boggling. You can turn away but when you come back they’ll still be there looking at you."

    — Diane Arbus, March 15, 1971, in response to a request for a brief statement about photographs

  2. #52

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    Quote Originally Posted by Photo Engineer View Post
    I think that you guys are being unrealistic. To make a reasonable color film there are 3 couplers that must be custom made in a lab by an organic chemist. There are 3 sensitizing dyes that require the same, and there are dozens of other custom items that must be made before the film can be coated.

    There is custom gelatin that must be made. There is a custom hardener that must be made and there are requirements for handling of toxic materials in the lab and as waste.

    You need between 3 and 9 custom emulsions.

    And, you have to coat between 6 and 14 layers at one time or in turn. The latter drives up the price manyfold and introduces a huge defect opportunity as handling increases.

    You need a coating staff and a testing staff in addition to those chemists and emulsion makers.

    And sales must pay for them, the plant and leave some for profit.

    And then you need an advertizing campaign and customers to make the money come in.

    PE
    WHO thought up this stuff? Oh, that's right--guys like PE did. Amazing. There's what?--104 elements in the periodic table, and that's all this world has? And they figured out how to combine the few of them that CAN be combined to get this stuff. That's purely amazing.

  3. #53
    cmacd123's Avatar
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    Both Foma and Ilford have made colour materials in the past. Foma's were probably based on the old Per-war Agfa formulas. They can't dust off those old formulas as they are not for the current popular process of E-6 and or C-41 (or ECN2 and ECP2).

    There have been rumours out of China on APUG that someone by the name of SUNNY has set up to produce a colour product based on the old Ferania/Dynacolor/3M/Imation/Ferania products. This rumour is vague enough that it might (or might not) include actual machinery and technology.

    Foma has been using Film Cassettes that are identical to what ferania was using at the close, so it is likely that they have bought at least Some items from the ferania Close out sale.

    Anyone who used Ferania Film will of course remember that while it was "Good" it was not "Great". Anyone who is still using film is probably looking for GREAT.

    Another shade on this topic is that the Kodak film Marketing business is now owned by the Kodak Limited pension Plan. I would be surprised if someone has not been working on a spreadsheet on the economics of buying or leasing Harrow to make smaller batches of Film than is economical at Building 38. That sort of plan may have one of the remaining makers contracting to do the conversion and packaging of the coated film. If the files were not already thrown away, it should only take a few months work to get at least Kodacolour back in production there.

    The take away is that it probably is not worth speculating at this point. let sjust enjoy what we have.
    Charles MacDonald
    aa508@ncf.ca
    I still live just beyond the fringe in Stittsville

  4. #54
    Steve Smith's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ken Nadvornick View Post
    Some people look at things, especially hard things, and immediately respond "Oh my god, that's impossible, you're crazy" and walk away.

    Other people have the ability to look at exactly the same hard things and will momentarily pause, then respond with a thoughtful "Hmm... Sounds crazy. But ya' know... if we just think about it for a minute..."
    Old saying (I don't know the source):

    "Those who say something cannot be done should not interrupt those actually doing it".


    Steve.
    "People who say things won't work are a dime a dozen. People who figure out how to make things work are worth a fortune" - Dave Rat.

  5. #55
    AgX
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    The Harrow plant is now owned by KPP, not just a film marketing department.

  6. #56
    Ken Nadvornick's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Steve Smith View Post
    "Those who say something cannot be done should not interrupt those actually doing it".
    "They are the proof that something was there and no longer is. Like a stain. And the stillness of them is boggling. You can turn away but when you come back they’ll still be there looking at you."

    — Diane Arbus, March 15, 1971, in response to a request for a brief statement about photographs

  7. #57

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    Well many tiny (by Kodak or Fujifilm standards) producers were making pretty good color photo films even in the 1960s and certainly in the 1970s.

    Not everyone needs a Kodak scale production model to make a happy profit.

    AGFA is still making some color film. It can be developed as a negative or reversal. Ferrania certainly has the knowledge and can ramp up. Sunny or Lucky in China and maybe even ORWO or Svema could do it.

    For all the stuck people that are concerned that the lower tier producers may not make color film as good as Kodak or Fuji, I say I would rather have a nice supply of Good color film than NO supply of Great color film.

    But then I am exstaticaly happy with Kodak Gold and Fujicolor consumer films which I think are amazingly great films for $2 a roll.
    - Bill Lynch

  8. #58
    Photo Engineer's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ken Nadvornick View Post
    No, I am not.

    But the post really had nothing whatsoever to do with chemistry, or film-making...



    Ken
    I understand, but your comment was meant to judge a situation and the reaction of a variety of people to that situation. That was the point of my comment. It was not intended to offend BTW. Nor is this reply.

    PE

  9. #59
    Photo Engineer's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Steve Smith View Post
    Old saying (I don't know the source):

    "Those who say something cannot be done should not interrupt those actually doing it".


    Steve.
    I am actually doing it in workshops and my book in the sense that I am trying to help lay the groundwork for a future generation of photo engineers, albeit on a smaller scale. I have also made some color single layer coatings. So........

    As to small manufacturers making color, Oriental comes to mind. Back in the 80s they came out with a color paper that was compatible with Ektaprint 3 chemistry. Actually, AFAIK, it was made by Mitsubishi which also made papers and films for other Japanese companies and was allied with Konishiroku.

    An Agfa style film made today would have an ISO speed of between 10 and 25, and would be quite acceptable but not great in terms of what we think of today.

    PE

  10. #60
    Sirius Glass's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tom1956 View Post
    Advertising!
    Kodak poured money down that rat hole for over a decade and had nothing to show for it.
    Warning!! Handling a Hasselblad can be harmful to your financial well being!

    Nothing beats a great piece of glass!

    I leave the digital work for the urologists and proctologists.



 

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