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  1. #61
    kb3lms's Avatar
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    Being in Reading PA indicates to me that this buggy whip craftsman is on the edge or in Amish country, a natural marketplace for buggy whips!
    Correct!

    TIP has been having it's issues, but they can produce a film product, because someone wanted to get it done.

    Anyway, I was not necessarily suggesting starting from scratch or at least without capable people. Chemists and engineers, etc., can be hired as consultants or contracted when necessary. I know there aren't that many of these people around experienced in emulsions but maybe you need one or two experts on your staff to direct the effort and just access to other people to do the detail work. Besides, given training and education, people can and do learn. Look at everything people on this forum learn all the time - and that's just internet reading. What if a well-educated and interested organic chemist had a dedicated, bona-fide former Kodak or Agfa expert to learn from (as in data-dump) for a month? What could they accomplish then? I do not mean to imply that starting color film production is easy - just that if someone really wants to do it, it can be done.

    Formulas, patents and other technology can be bought or licensed. It's done all the time! Maybe we don't start with equivalents of Portra and Ektar but with 1980's technology. Products can and will be improved and given the option of Kodacolor II or no color film at all.... Again, if someone really wants to do it, a way will be found.

    Surplus manufacturing space with all the conveniences can be found all over the place for a song. I can show you empty manufacturing facilities right now with rail, electric, water, gas and whatever else service you want right now that commercial real estate agents cannot move at any price. No, they aren't film factories today, but when did that stop a businessman on a mission?

    How big of a facility is really necessary, anyway? ADOX doesn't have a huge factory and look at the rat-hole EFKE was in. If a new coating machine needs to be obtained, we don't really need a machine capable of 54 inch wide rolls that are 6000 feet long do we? Maybe 24 inches wide by 500 feet long would be the right size capacity for today's market with probably at least an order of magnitude difference in implementation costs. Or, what about facilities like Innoviscoat? Maybe we don't even need the coating machine, we buy time on an existing shared resource when it is needed.

    I would be surprised if someone has not been working on a spreadsheet on the economics of buying or leasing Harrow to make smaller batches of Film than is economical at Building 38.
    Exactly! Many of Kodak's current or at least recent products were likely made at Harrow once. If they want to make them there again it will be done. It is an exercise of solving the technical problems and justifying the costs. (Recall, here, the old joke about the accountant interviewing for a job.)

    Sure there are always gotchas, but if someone has the will to do something, a way can be found to overcome the obstacles. After all, Columbus DID get to the new world and NASA DID get to the moon.
    All this has happened before, and all this will happen again.

  2. #62

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    NASA didn't have to turn a profit getting to the moon.

  3. #63
    Sirius Glass's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by kb3lms View Post
    Formulas, patents and other technology can be bought or licensed. It's done all the time! Maybe we don't start with equivalents of Portra and Ektar but with 1980's technology. Products can and will be improved and given the option of Kodacolor II or no color film at all.... Again, if someone really wants to do it, a way will be found.
    This has been covered here many times over the years. The documentation is not complete and it would take a long time to get it working properly. PE has spent half his posts killing this myth.
    Warning!! Handling a Hasselblad can be harmful to your financial well being!

    Nothing beats a great piece of glass!

    I leave the digital work for the urologists and proctologists.

  4. #64
    Matthew Wagg's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by kb3lms View Post
    but when did that stop a businessman on a mission?
    Ah if only I had access to some lottery money, I'd have a setup running. Sure there might not be any profit for a while but to have a future for film I think it'd totally be worth it. After all Impossible did it with Polaroids.

  5. #65
    Photo Engineer's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sirius Glass View Post
    This has been covered here many times over the years. The documentation is not complete and it would take a long time to get it working properly. PE has spent half his posts killing this myth.
    YEP!

    This is the problem confronting us and which (to a certain extent0 did not face TIP as they had the engineers and equipment.

    The patents have a key phrase "obvious to one skilled in the art" which means "we ain't gonna tell ya". It also means that someone can figure it out with good education and lots of time and money.

    And so, you have about 200 photo engineers world wide who can do this stuff and most of us are old. Many of us refuse to discuss this out of some sort of loyalty to EK or Fuji or whatever company they worked for. Some are too old and some just don't care. Once those 200 are gone, lots of luck. Oh, and don't expect to hire people away from EK as they are held by an NDA and can't give you information.

    My NDA has expired by now, but I'm much too old to go haring around the world to support this kind of stuff.

    PE

  6. #66

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    Quote Originally Posted by Photo Engineer View Post
    YEP!

    This is the problem confronting us and which (to a certain extent0 did not face TIP as they had the engineers and equipment.

    The patents have a key phrase "obvious to one skilled in the art" which means "we ain't gonna tell ya". It also means that someone can figure it out with good education and lots of time and money.

    And so, you have about 200 photo engineers world wide who can do this stuff and most of us are old. Many of us refuse to discuss this out of some sort of loyalty to EK or Fuji or whatever company they worked for. Some are too old and some just don't care. Once those 200 are gone, lots of luck. Oh, and don't expect to hire people away from EK as they are held by an NDA and can't give you information.

    My NDA has expired by now, but I'm much too old to go haring around the world to support this kind of stuff.

    PE
    Well PE, one day we'll see you guys in heaven and things will be different. I'm counting on there being all the Kodak film there I can shoot.

  7. #67
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    This thread went crazy once PE started posting, but I wanted to reply to the "advertising" comment.

    Do you think that Kodak, Ilford, Fuji, Adox, and Foma (did I miss anyone still left?) would come together and buy an advertising campaign to make people AWARE of film?

    The whole Kodachrome "ending" on the news confused most people I know and they all say "didn't they stop making film a few years ago? I saw a thing on the news that the last photo lab shut down" I get this a lot... So wouldn't it behoove ALL of the film companies still left to remind people? And also get "younger folk" interested in more than just "Lomo" shooting?


    ~Stone | Sent w/ iPhone using Tapatalk
    ~Stone | "...of course, that's just my opinion. I could be wrong." ~Dennis Miller

  8. #68
    StoneNYC's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Photo Engineer View Post
    YEP!

    This is the problem confronting us and which (to a certain extent0 did not face TIP as they had the engineers and equipment.

    The patents have a key phrase "obvious to one skilled in the art" which means "we ain't gonna tell ya". It also means that someone can figure it out with good education and lots of time and money.

    And so, you have about 200 photo engineers world wide who can do this stuff and most of us are old. Many of us refuse to discuss this out of some sort of loyalty to EK or Fuji or whatever company they worked for. Some are too old and some just don't care. Once those 200 are gone, lots of luck. Oh, and don't expect to hire people away from EK as they are held by an NDA and can't give you information.

    My NDA has expired by now, but I'm much too old to go haring around the world to support this kind of stuff.

    PE
    Well can't you at least bequeath your info on the secrets to making good e-6 etc to someone so they can someday "spill the beans?" Some young ambitious and annoying hot shot who just loves film and isn't afraid of "the man" and spreads the knowledge of film for all to enjoy?


    ~Stone | Sent w/ iPhone using Tapatalk
    ~Stone | "...of course, that's just my opinion. I could be wrong." ~Dennis Miller

  9. #69

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    Quote Originally Posted by railwayman3 View Post
    Just think of the cost of building a new coating line for color, even a small one. You can't buy one readymade, so you need new specialist buildings, specially designed and built one-off machinery, plant for emulsion making (many seperate coatings all to be ready at the right time), and the qualified and experienced staff to operate it. You then need packaging machines (or at least different packaging and print supplies), quality control support, at least some initial R&D, a distribution chain to the smaller number of specialist customers, with processing services or chemical kits if Kodak and Fuji no longer supply them.

    Don't hold your breath.

    This kind of stuff happens every day. I know a guy, my former boss who built his own chemical plant, by himself, with a bit of help on the side. It took him almost a year to do it but he got it up and the reactors running. None of what you describe above is impossible to do by any stretch of the imagination.

    Only lack of imagination holds it back.

  10. #70

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    So if Kodak ceases all film production, closes everything down completely, all those formulations are just going to die? No one will divulge them and allow them to potentially live on elsewhere? Seems wrong.



 

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