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  1. #61
    Photo Engineer's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sirius Glass View Post
    This has been covered here many times over the years. The documentation is not complete and it would take a long time to get it working properly. PE has spent half his posts killing this myth.
    YEP!

    This is the problem confronting us and which (to a certain extent0 did not face TIP as they had the engineers and equipment.

    The patents have a key phrase "obvious to one skilled in the art" which means "we ain't gonna tell ya". It also means that someone can figure it out with good education and lots of time and money.

    And so, you have about 200 photo engineers world wide who can do this stuff and most of us are old. Many of us refuse to discuss this out of some sort of loyalty to EK or Fuji or whatever company they worked for. Some are too old and some just don't care. Once those 200 are gone, lots of luck. Oh, and don't expect to hire people away from EK as they are held by an NDA and can't give you information.

    My NDA has expired by now, but I'm much too old to go haring around the world to support this kind of stuff.

    PE

  2. #62

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    Quote Originally Posted by Photo Engineer View Post
    YEP!

    This is the problem confronting us and which (to a certain extent0 did not face TIP as they had the engineers and equipment.

    The patents have a key phrase "obvious to one skilled in the art" which means "we ain't gonna tell ya". It also means that someone can figure it out with good education and lots of time and money.

    And so, you have about 200 photo engineers world wide who can do this stuff and most of us are old. Many of us refuse to discuss this out of some sort of loyalty to EK or Fuji or whatever company they worked for. Some are too old and some just don't care. Once those 200 are gone, lots of luck. Oh, and don't expect to hire people away from EK as they are held by an NDA and can't give you information.

    My NDA has expired by now, but I'm much too old to go haring around the world to support this kind of stuff.

    PE
    Well PE, one day we'll see you guys in heaven and things will be different. I'm counting on there being all the Kodak film there I can shoot.

  3. #63

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    This thread went crazy once PE started posting, but I wanted to reply to the "advertising" comment.

    Do you think that Kodak, Ilford, Fuji, Adox, and Foma (did I miss anyone still left?) would come together and buy an advertising campaign to make people AWARE of film?

    The whole Kodachrome "ending" on the news confused most people I know and they all say "didn't they stop making film a few years ago? I saw a thing on the news that the last photo lab shut down" I get this a lot... So wouldn't it behoove ALL of the film companies still left to remind people? And also get "younger folk" interested in more than just "Lomo" shooting?


    ~Stone | Sent w/ iPhone using Tapatalk

  4. #64

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    Quote Originally Posted by Photo Engineer View Post
    YEP!

    This is the problem confronting us and which (to a certain extent0 did not face TIP as they had the engineers and equipment.

    The patents have a key phrase "obvious to one skilled in the art" which means "we ain't gonna tell ya". It also means that someone can figure it out with good education and lots of time and money.

    And so, you have about 200 photo engineers world wide who can do this stuff and most of us are old. Many of us refuse to discuss this out of some sort of loyalty to EK or Fuji or whatever company they worked for. Some are too old and some just don't care. Once those 200 are gone, lots of luck. Oh, and don't expect to hire people away from EK as they are held by an NDA and can't give you information.

    My NDA has expired by now, but I'm much too old to go haring around the world to support this kind of stuff.

    PE
    Well can't you at least bequeath your info on the secrets to making good e-6 etc to someone so they can someday "spill the beans?" Some young ambitious and annoying hot shot who just loves film and isn't afraid of "the man" and spreads the knowledge of film for all to enjoy?


    ~Stone | Sent w/ iPhone using Tapatalk

  5. #65

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    I would think the Chinese would probably take up a lot of it. In the past several years, government has been the biggest "industry" in the US. If Kodak can ride out this blight a few more years they might have a chance. JMHO. There are a few things only film can do that the computer cannot.

  6. #66
    AgX
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    Quote Originally Posted by Photo Engineer View Post
    An Agfa style film made today would have an ISO speed of between 10 and 25, and would be quite acceptable but not great in terms of what we think of today.

    The fastest consumer grade Agfa-style colour film of the past had ISO 160.

  7. #67
    PDH
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    Quote Originally Posted by RattyMouse View Post
    So if Kodak ceases all film production, closes everything down completely, all those formulations are just going to die? No one will divulge them and allow them to potentially live on elsewhere? Seems wrong.
    Does anyone know what happened to the GAF and Dupont emulsion formulations, have they just have gone into the either?

  8. #68
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    So if Kodak ceases all film production, closes everything down completely, all those formulations are just going to die? No one will divulge them and allow them to potentially live on elsewhere? Seems wrong.
    Unfortunately, it seems that is exactly what happens - they just go away. What about the EFKE formulations? AFAIK there is no intention to ever produce an EFKE film again, so what's the harm in telling us how it works, especially if moving production from one line to another is not an easy thing to do anyway? Maybe someone else has licensed or owns the IP by this time, I don't know. But from what I know of it, they weren't particularly up to date formulas and there are plenty junior emulsion makers here that would just love to see under the hood.

    EFKE films were black and white films, not color, but my point being the data hasn't shown up anywhere so yes, when they quit it seems that they just go into that big emulsion kettle in the sky.

    NASA didn't have to turn a profit getting to the moon.
    That's true, but they had to make progress, keep the taxpayers happy and actually achieve the goal. It wasn't entirely open loop. Like the post about someone starting up their own chemical plant above, if someone has the will to make the effort to produce small runs of color films profitably, they will figure out how to do so. It may not be easy, they might have to start from scratch or they might buy/license technology. They might have some of the 200 emulsion engineers available to them or they may not. I do not know how it would be done - all I am saying is that if someone really wants to do it then they will find a way and make it happen. Someone says they are going to do this at Ferrania. We'll see how badly they want to get it done in the next few months, I suppose.
    Last edited by kb3lms; 07-23-2013 at 10:38 AM. Click to view previous post history. Reason: grammar
    All this has happened before, and all this will happen again.

  9. #69

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    I have wondered from time to time if they could ever build a Saturn 5 rocket exactly as it was, again. I have my doubts. I think if they were to repeat the entire mission as it was to the detail, the men would be killed.

  10. #70
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    To start with, I am not the person to bequeath anything to posterity regarding all film manufacture. I know small bits and pieces of things but not everything. And, in some cases I never was involved in actual products. So, I know little about E6 products, but know a fair bit about C41 and some B&W products. But, then again that knowledge is out of date as of the time I retired. That is the reason for an NDA. It obsoletes information. So, there are better people to talk to about these subjects.

    As for making a chemical plant, very admirable! But in the case of film, that is a tiny fraction of the overall plant. You need custom synthesis, custom coating, and custom chemical prep. See Bob Shanebrook's book for all of this stuff. So, making film is building a chemical plant times 4 or so just to get started. Do able? Yes! Desirable? Maybe, because without enough revenues you lose money.

    Now, I don:t think anything posted here makes this thread crazy.

    Oh, and BTW, a Saturn V by today's technology is primitive. Today, we would use light weight materials and a solid fuel rocket to get that baby moving. And the astronauts would have the same chance as the Shuttle astronauts did or better.

    PE



 

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