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  1. #71
    kb3lms's Avatar
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    So if Kodak ceases all film production, closes everything down completely, all those formulations are just going to die? No one will divulge them and allow them to potentially live on elsewhere? Seems wrong.
    Unfortunately, it seems that is exactly what happens - they just go away. What about the EFKE formulations? AFAIK there is no intention to ever produce an EFKE film again, so what's the harm in telling us how it works, especially if moving production from one line to another is not an easy thing to do anyway? Maybe someone else has licensed or owns the IP by this time, I don't know. But from what I know of it, they weren't particularly up to date formulas and there are plenty junior emulsion makers here that would just love to see under the hood.

    EFKE films were black and white films, not color, but my point being the data hasn't shown up anywhere so yes, when they quit it seems that they just go into that big emulsion kettle in the sky.

    NASA didn't have to turn a profit getting to the moon.
    That's true, but they had to make progress, keep the taxpayers happy and actually achieve the goal. It wasn't entirely open loop. Like the post about someone starting up their own chemical plant above, if someone has the will to make the effort to produce small runs of color films profitably, they will figure out how to do so. It may not be easy, they might have to start from scratch or they might buy/license technology. They might have some of the 200 emulsion engineers available to them or they may not. I do not know how it would be done - all I am saying is that if someone really wants to do it then they will find a way and make it happen. Someone says they are going to do this at Ferrania. We'll see how badly they want to get it done in the next few months, I suppose.
    Last edited by kb3lms; 07-23-2013 at 10:38 AM. Click to view previous post history. Reason: grammar
    All this has happened before, and all this will happen again.

  2. #72

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    I have wondered from time to time if they could ever build a Saturn 5 rocket exactly as it was, again. I have my doubts. I think if they were to repeat the entire mission as it was to the detail, the men would be killed.

  3. #73
    Photo Engineer's Avatar
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    To start with, I am not the person to bequeath anything to posterity regarding all film manufacture. I know small bits and pieces of things but not everything. And, in some cases I never was involved in actual products. So, I know little about E6 products, but know a fair bit about C41 and some B&W products. But, then again that knowledge is out of date as of the time I retired. That is the reason for an NDA. It obsoletes information. So, there are better people to talk to about these subjects.

    As for making a chemical plant, very admirable! But in the case of film, that is a tiny fraction of the overall plant. You need custom synthesis, custom coating, and custom chemical prep. See Bob Shanebrook's book for all of this stuff. So, making film is building a chemical plant times 4 or so just to get started. Do able? Yes! Desirable? Maybe, because without enough revenues you lose money.

    Now, I don:t think anything posted here makes this thread crazy.

    Oh, and BTW, a Saturn V by today's technology is primitive. Today, we would use light weight materials and a solid fuel rocket to get that baby moving. And the astronauts would have the same chance as the Shuttle astronauts did or better.

    PE

  4. #74
    kb3lms's Avatar
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    Regarding the Saturn V, CAN it be done: YES. There is a man here in Reading, PA building a P-61 from scraps of a crashed plane, new materials and some microfiche plans from North American. It is supposed to fly this year or next and certainly appears likely to happen. The effort has become a life mission for him. These things CAN be done.

    WOULD the US Government build another Saturn V and go to the moon, or any other planet/asteroid for that matter? No. They are far too interested in tracking our email and phone calls and other things that I would not recommend we get into here.
    All this has happened before, and all this will happen again.

  5. #75
    kb3lms's Avatar
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    Oh, and BTW, a Saturn V by today's technology is primitive. Today, we would use light weight materials and a solid fuel rocket to get that baby moving. And the astronauts would have the same chance as the Shuttle astronauts did or better.
    Agreed, we could do a much better job today. I wish we would.
    All this has happened before, and all this will happen again.

  6. #76

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    I hope I'll be forgiven for interrupting the discussion with another Ilford "colour" advertisement, from the 1966 BJP Annual (acquired today in an Oxfam shop)
    Attached Thumbnails Attached Thumbnails 20130723_4335-03-1.jpg  

  7. #77
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    Quote Originally Posted by Photo Engineer View Post

    Oh, and BTW, a Saturn V by today's technology is primitive. Today, we would use light weight materials and a solid fuel rocket to get that baby moving. And the astronauts would have the same chance as the Shuttle astronauts did or better.

    PE
    I disagree. Solid rocket fuel is nasty stuff. And they are currently testing an old Saturn V rocket motor to understand just how it was done back then, and to figure out how improve on its power output. Primitive, maybe, but fundamentally very sound.

    If the money had been there to develop the Shuttle as originally envisioned, the fatal compromises which led to the destruction of two of them would not have been present.
    I do use a digital device in my photographic pursuits when necessary.
    When someone rags on me for using film, I use a middle digit, upraised.

  8. #78
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    Out of curiosity, does anyone have any data that would give at least a ballpark idea of the current demand for (to pick one example) Portra 160 in 120 format?

    What are global sales? 1000 rolls/day? 10,000 rolls/day? 10 rolls/day? 100,000 rolls/day?

    Any idea?

  9. #79
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tom1956 View Post
    I have wondered from time to time if they could ever build a Saturn 5 rocket exactly as it was, again. I have my doubts. I think if they were to repeat the entire mission as it was to the detail, the men would be killed.
    Why? Do you think people just don't care enough anymore? Many excellent and dedicated people are involved in modern space endeavors, and they have the past on which to draw. And methods of design, manufacture and testing have improved tremendously since then.

    Have you forgotten about Apollo 1? Poor quality work led to that horror, exacerbated by some poor design.

    Your statement doesn't hold water. Cars and air travel are safer than they've ever been, due to constant learning and improvement. Independent companies are getting into space now, and I am pretty sure that not killing people is a very important consideration to them.
    I do use a digital device in my photographic pursuits when necessary.
    When someone rags on me for using film, I use a middle digit, upraised.

  10. #80

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    Quote Originally Posted by lxdude View Post
    Why? Do you think people just don't care enough anymore? Methods of design, manufacture and testing have improved tremendously since then.

    Have you forgotten about Apollo 1? Poor quality work led to that horror, exacerbated by some poor design.

    Your statement doesn't hold water. Cars and air travel are safer than they've ever been, due to constant learning and improvement. Independent companies are getting into space now, and I am pretty sure that not killing people is a very important consideration to them.
    No, I simply meant that the designs of the equipment have fallen into oblivion. I didn't say they couldn't do it with the present technology. They're not likely to though, as the moon is just sand. There's no resources there that can be mined or utilized. A basically worthless ball that provides the tides here, and that's about all.



 

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