Switch to English Language Passer en langue française Omschakelen naar Nederlandse Taal Wechseln Sie zu deutschen Sprache Passa alla lingua italiana
Members: 70,968   Posts: 1,558,480   Online: 1021
      
Page 2 of 3 FirstFirst 123 LastLast
Results 11 to 20 of 29
  1. #11

    Join Date
    May 2006
    Location
    Aurora, IL
    Shooter
    35mm
    Posts
    1,958
    Quote Originally Posted by ntenny View Post
    I was having this same confusion about ME Super's explanation. I thought I understood slide film decently, but now I'm not so sure...

    With negatives, you expose for the shadows because nothing you do can recover information that wasn't recorded---you have to give enough time for the shadows to have some activated grains in them, and then you work with the development process to control the highlights. As is well known, slide film works the other way: If you overexpose and remove all the density, your highlights blow, so you have to expose for the highlights. But here's where I get confused.

    Say I've exposed for a reasonable highlight (not a specular) in a scene with a long scale. Well, the shadow areas on the film are still receiving very few photons, so there are very few activated grains in the latent image. Doesn't that mean that I end up with the same blank shadows due to underexposure that I'd get in a negative? Changes in development can raise or lower the curve, but they can't create shadow information that wasn't there.

    Does this mean that in practice very little can be done to extend the dynamic range of slide film? To extend the shadows you'd have to overexpose, but that blows the highlights; to extend the highlights you'd underexpose, but that gives you no information in the shadows; and there doesn't seem to be an analogue to compensating development that would help keep the highlights from blowing out. Have I got it right?

    -NT
    Yes it is true that there is little you can do to extend the dynamic range of the slide film.

  2. #12
    kintatsu's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2012
    Location
    Bavaria, Germany
    Shooter
    4x5 Format
    Posts
    350
    Images
    2
    Quote Originally Posted by ntenny View Post
    ... Doesn't that mean that I end up with the same blank shadows due to underexposure that I'd get in a negative? Changes in development can raise or lower the curve, but they can't create shadow information that wasn't there.

    Does this mean that in practice very little can be done to extend the dynamic range of slide film? To extend the shadows you'd have to overexpose, but that blows the highlights; to extend the highlights you'd underexpose, but that gives you no information in the shadows; and there doesn't seem to be an analogue to compensating development that would help keep the highlights from blowing out. Have I got it right?

    -NT
    That's where my confusion lies, also. Beyond the specularities that come from say, light streaming through the trees, exposing for a highlight makes sense from a density perspective. That allows the highlights to record information. But how can detailed information be recovered from the shadows, if they drop to, say Zone II?

  3. #13
    kintatsu's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2012
    Location
    Bavaria, Germany
    Shooter
    4x5 Format
    Posts
    350
    Images
    2
    Quote Originally Posted by Chan Tran View Post
    Yes it is true that there is little you can do to extend the dynamic range of the slide film.
    So basically, according to place and fall, placing your highlights within scale, other values will always be wherever they fall, with no true development controls to offset or change that relationship?

  4. #14
    MattKing's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2005
    Location
    Delta, British Columbia, Canada
    Shooter
    Multi Format
    Posts
    12,610
    Images
    60
    Quote Originally Posted by Chan Tran View Post
    Yes it is true that there is little you can do to extend the dynamic range of the slide film.
    +1

    Except ....

    When it comes to projection, you can increase brightness of the light source.

    When it comes to optical printing, either to interneg or Ilfochrome, you can use masks to hold back the highlights, in order to dig out more detail from the shadows.

    And when it comes to scanning and digital post-production, there are techniques available there as well.

    You need to expose for the highlights, and use the after-exposure techniques to dig out more from the shadows. There is a lot of detail there, but it is hard to get at.
    Attached Thumbnails Attached Thumbnails Image10e-2012-03-13.jpg  
    Matt

    “Photography is a complex and fluid medium, and its many factors are not applied in simple sequence. Rather, the process may be likened to the art of the juggler in keeping many balls in the air at one time!”

    Ansel Adams, from the introduction to The Negative - The New Ansel Adams Photography Series / Book 2

  5. #15
    kintatsu's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2012
    Location
    Bavaria, Germany
    Shooter
    4x5 Format
    Posts
    350
    Images
    2
    Quote Originally Posted by MattKing View Post
    ... You need to expose for the highlights, and use the after-exposure techniques to dig out more from the shadows. There is a lot of detail there, but it is hard to get at.
    So, basically, one should plan their after techniques around their final output medium, and use exposure controls to maximize the image quality? Development controls being, for the most part, unavailable, makes this part even more imperative with slides than film, it would seem.

    BTW, amazing photo! I love the light and color coming together that way!

  6. #16
    MattKing's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2005
    Location
    Delta, British Columbia, Canada
    Shooter
    Multi Format
    Posts
    12,610
    Images
    60
    Quote Originally Posted by kintatsu View Post
    So, basically, one should plan their after techniques around their final output medium, and use exposure controls to maximize the image quality? Development controls being, for the most part, unavailable, makes this part even more imperative with slides than film, it would seem.

    BTW, amazing photo! I love the light and color coming together that way!
    Correct!

    Don't forget lighting controls as well - reflectors and fill flash are your friends.
    Matt

    “Photography is a complex and fluid medium, and its many factors are not applied in simple sequence. Rather, the process may be likened to the art of the juggler in keeping many balls in the air at one time!”

    Ansel Adams, from the introduction to The Negative - The New Ansel Adams Photography Series / Book 2

  7. #17
    kintatsu's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2012
    Location
    Bavaria, Germany
    Shooter
    4x5 Format
    Posts
    350
    Images
    2
    Quote Originally Posted by MattKing View Post
    Correct!

    Don't forget lighting controls as well - reflectors and fill flash are your friends.
    Thanks for the reminder on lighting mods. I quite often forget them for landscape type shots, as larger scenes are often too big for them. Of course, that's when you find some detail oriented shot that gets away for lack of something to bounce in some light!

    Last weekend, in Bayreuth, I could have used one. Walking through a palace garden, I came upon a tree stump that was decayed and bowl formed from the weather that had some moss and 3 maple leaves growing out. The colors came together so nicely, with the texture and shapes, and of course, not enough light! At least I have the memory and a dim digital pic to remind me. I shot it with a yellow filter for B&W, but the colors came together nicely even in color the green seemed to have a life of its own!

  8. #18
    Bill Burk's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2010
    Shooter
    4x5 Format
    Posts
    3,432
    Images
    46
    And also don't forget "Galen Rowell" type Neutral Density Graduated Filters which can hold back the highlights (if they can be divided on a soft or hard line such as a skyline in a landscape).

    An added benefit of these is you can probably get away with using them on US and California Land without a permit (because if you bring scrims, reflectors and flash, you might attract unwanted attention).

  9. #19
    kintatsu's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2012
    Location
    Bavaria, Germany
    Shooter
    4x5 Format
    Posts
    350
    Images
    2
    Quote Originally Posted by Bill Burk View Post
    And also don't forget "Galen Rowell" type Neutral Density Graduated Filters which can hold back the highlights (if they can be divided on a soft or hard line such as a skyline in a landscape).

    An added benefit of these is you can probably get away with using them on US and California Land without a permit (because if you bring scrims, reflectors and flash, you might attract unwanted attention).
    I don't have the kit for grads, but do have a 10 stop variable ND, but that won't help. Using my 40 inch reflector and remote cable release, I should be able to get something nice. With my small reflector, detail shots are easy. I just have to remember to bring them!

    Where I'll be shooting, at the Hermiatge and New Residenz in Bayreuth, should pose no problem. I'd like to get some changing leaves in the walk way at the Hermitage. The trees seem almost woven together overhead, and with the colors that come about halfway through the changeover, some dramatic scenes can be brought to life. The hard part will be getting the lake at the New Residenz, as it's extremely dark in parts and overly bright in others. Knowing this and that no controls beyond what I actually have at hand, means I can consider my output and match my shooting to that. A bonus is the ducks. Bring along some cookies or bread, and an army of nearly 100 ducks will converge on the pond and add some life, a detail that brings feeling to the pic.

    Thanks for the tip on the grads. I do have to get a kit together for the filters. Right now, I'm using Heliopan circulars fit to my largest lens and adapters to use them on the smaller lenses.

  10. #20

    Join Date
    Jul 2011
    Shooter
    8x10 Format
    Posts
    2,689
    Previously you could overexpose then "pull" develop certain slide films for slightly lower contrast, but current transparency films aren't very
    amenable to this, and the results always tended to muddy the highlights anyway. "Flashing" is another so-so trick which muddies the shadows.
    And any decent Ciba print requires significant masking to control the contrast anyway. I'm getting prints the same look as Ciba much more
    easily now by using Ektar film and printing it on Fuji Supergloss. Masking is needed only about 30% of the time. With Ciba it's 100% of the
    time. Plus Ektar gives you about one stop more range each direction than Provia. You can get even more latitude with more typical color neg
    films like Portra 160, but you sacrifice to a considerable extent the clean saturated hues typical of chrome films or now Ektar (Porta is basically engineered as portrait film first, other things second). But obviously with negatives you can't just slap them down on a light box
    and instantly recognize what you've got. It takes some experience to judge negatives, or else a contact sheet. Scans can also be used to
    evaluate your negs, but affordable low rez scans tend to work very poorly with 35mm color neg film. Printing color neg in your own darkroom
    is much easier than printing Cibachrome.

Page 2 of 3 FirstFirst 123 LastLast


 

APUG PARTNERS EQUALLY FUNDING OUR COMMUNITY:



Contact Us  |  Support Us!  |  Advertise  |  Site Terms  |  Archive  —   Search  |  Mobile Device Access  |  RSS  |  Facebook  |  Linkedin