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  1. #31

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    Yup

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    StoneNYC's Avatar
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    Question, is the orange "hue" in C-41 necessary if you are scanning?

    In theory could they make a CN film without the orange color if you were only scanning? Without issues?


    Sent w/ iPhone using Tapatalk
    ~Stone | "...of course, that's just my opinion. I could be wrong." ~Dennis Miller

  3. #33

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    Quote Originally Posted by StoneNYC View Post
    Question, is the orange "hue" in C-41 necessary if you are scanning?

    In theory could they make a CN film without the orange color if you were only scanning? Without issues?
    The orange 'hue' is there to correct for unwanted adsorption by dyes in the developed film. There have been color negative films that did not use such color masking (Agfa, for example). I believe the masking technology was in a Kodak patent.

    So, yes, the color masking helps give better colors in both traditional printing and digital scanning.

  4. #34
    David Lyga's Avatar
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    Seriously, was Agfa so stupid? Perhaps not, with their 'clear' color negatives. I'll bet I could make a very nice print from a 'clear' color negative.

    Maybe there was overkill here, maybe not: I am not versed in the finer point of 'hue', but, even with chromogenic materials, why all that damn density? - David Lyga

  5. #35

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    Quote Originally Posted by David Lyga View Post
    , why all that damn density?
    David,

    Download http://motion.kodak.com/motion/uploa...tion_H-188.pdf and read pages 40-43

    (This is the Kodak Publication 'Color as Seen and Photographed' If you don't already have a copy, download it and add it to your reference library.)

  6. #36
    David Lyga's Avatar
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    Yes, roughly, the blue would be too prominent if the orange were not there to mitigate its effect. I already knew that, Professor Pixel, but what I am saying is this: Isn't the R&D at Agfa inhabited by people who studied this color theory? (Or, would you take the argument that that R&D there is inhibited by those very people!!!)

    I do think that the folks at Agfa had a pretty good hold on color theory and that this was not a 'mistake' on their collective part. I am wondering if there was a trade-off in that, technically, you theoretically need the orange mask but could also get good color without?

    Honestly, I do not know, but I don't think that the mask-less product delivered by Agfa has to be construed as an exercise in ignorance. There has to be a 'side' to their argument that held water. Correct me if I am wrong. - David Lyga

  7. #37

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    Quote Originally Posted by David Lyga View Post
    I do think that the folks at Agfa had a pretty good hold on color theory and that this was not a 'mistake' on their collective part. I am wondering if there was a trade-off in that, technically, you theoretically need the orange mask but could also get good color without?

    The use of color masking couplers was a Kodak patent. I certainly can't speak for Agfa, but they may have used another approach.

    See AgX's discussion of masking in http://www.apug.org/forums/forum40/5...ange-mask.html

  8. #38
    RPC
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    The lack of a mask is a reason prints from reversal films have never had the color quality of prints from color negatives. This has been mentioned many times in this forum by PE and others. I have printed slides onto Cibachrome and observed this myself, and to many experienced printers it is common knowledge.

    On the subject of Agfa color negatives, I refer to Bertram Miller, an experienced color printer and researcher who wrote articles on color printing for Darkroom and Creative Camera Techniques magazine and here is a excerpt from an article he wrote, "Color Reproduction in Negative Films":

    "If these dyes didn't receive special treatment, the problems would be compounded in the prints. In fact, It was a serious problem for me when I began to print from unmasked Agfacolor CN-14 negatives many years ago. Thankfully, there are no surviving examples of the distorted and grayed-down colors I got then. Those who have no memory of those days will not believe the amount of orange the skin contained, nor the amount of purple in the skies."

    After the masking technology was developed by Kodak to solve this problem, Agfa too, masked its films.

    It is also true that today, specific dye-coupler types and inter-image effects also perform some of the needed color correction, but the mask still performs the bulk of it.

  9. #39

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    RPC,

    THanks for the information.

  10. #40
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    Quote Originally Posted by RPC View Post
    The lack of a mask is a reason prints from reversal films have never had the color quality of prints from color negatives
    You're saying that CN film has better colors in a print than cibichrome prints? I'm not sure how I can believe this when everyone talks about the amazing colors of Cibichrome prints, and all my views of CN prints on RA-4 are not as impressive. Can you show me examples?
    ~Stone | "...of course, that's just my opinion. I could be wrong." ~Dennis Miller

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