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  1. #1

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    C-41 and ECP-2D with only a developer switch?

    I normally shoot Ektar 100 in 120, but I do love projecting my 35mm slides.

    So I was thinking, when I want to make slides, maybe I can just put my 6x9 negatives in some sort of carrier for my Nikon N90s, and strike the slides I want from the negatives onto 35mm Vision Premier Color Print Film. Along the way I realized how cheap the C-41 chemicals are, and thought that I might be able to run both processes (C-41 and ECP-2D) using the same bleach, fixer, and if necessary for both, "final rinse". I would be mixing my own ECP developer from the Kodak recipe right before I use it: I know it's not too shelf-stable.

    Sounds to me like a great setup, at least in theory. I would be able to develop my negatives, look them over, and strike slides from them in the same day (ATL-2 makes it easy).

    My question is, can I use the C-41 bleach, fix, and final rinse for ECP-2D?
    Also, should there be a stop bath after development in one process, both, or neither?
    And if anyone has experience exposing Vision Premier Color Print Film, your exposure settings please. Thanks!

  2. #2
    Rudeofus's Avatar
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    A stop bath is recommended for C41 and apparently also ECP-2D. The bleach recipes for ECP-2D include two versions of an Ammonium Ferric PDTA bleach which sounds like what Flexicolor Bleach III for C41 uses. One big difference I see is fixer pH for ECP-2D vs. C41, so in theory a C41 fixer would need some extra Acetic Acid to get its pH down from 6.5 to 5.8, otherwise you risk off colors.
    Trying to be the best of whatever I am, even if what I am is no good.

  3. #3
    AgX
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    Cine print film is intended for cine camera negative film that has lower contrast than still negative film.
    So your slides would yield more contrast than a reversal processed slide film or a copy on, now obsolete, still print film.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Rudeofus View Post
    One big difference I see is fixer pH for ECP-2D vs. C41, so in theory a C41 fixer would need some extra Acetic Acid to get its pH down from 6.5 to 5.8, otherwise you risk off colors.
    Silly me, I forgot about pH. That being said however, why does a fixer pH difference cause color shift? I've heard of that happening with developer, but not with fixer.

    Quote Originally Posted by AgX View Post
    Cine print film is intended for cine camera negative film that has lower contrast than still negative film.
    So your slides would yield more contrast than a reversal processed slide film or a copy on, now obsolete, still print film.
    When you say higher contrast how much higher are we talking? Do you have contrast specs for e.g. Ektar 100 and Kodak 5207?
    Because when I look at the sensitometric curves for these two, I'm seeing a Dmax-Dmin of about 2.8 and 2.6 respectively; for about 14 stops of dynamic range each. I could be wrong though.

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    Quote Originally Posted by ajseier View Post
    Silly me, I forgot about pH. That being said however, why does a fixer pH difference cause color shift? I've heard of that happening with developer, but not with fixer.



    When you say higher contrast how much higher are we talking? Do you have contrast specs for e.g. Ektar 100 and Kodak 5207?
    Because when I look at the sensitometric curves for these two, I'm seeing a Dmax-Dmin of about 2.8 and 2.6 respectively; for about 14 stops of dynamic range each. I could be wrong though.
    Here is a curve comparison

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    Rudeofus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ajseier View Post
    Silly me, I forgot about pH. That being said however, why does a fixer pH difference cause color shift? I've heard of that happening with developer, but not with fixer.
    You mix up two separate effects that can change colors:
    1. If the three layers are developed at incorrect rates (incorrect pH will do that to you), layer density is not in lock step and colors will be off. Note that because of this even the E6 FD, which technically is a strong b&w developer, can have impact on slide colors.
    2. Dyes change their color hue depending on whether they are protonized or not, and different pH changes the degree of protonization. Indicator dyes are examples where this is particularly pronounced, but I hear that most dyes show this effect. Since fixer is the last bath that has significant concentration (hence buffering), its pH seems to be quite important.
    Trying to be the best of whatever I am, even if what I am is no good.

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    How about pull processing ECP-2 for contrast control? Kodak obviously does not provide guidelines for doing pull processing of ECP, but suggests a 30-second shortening of development for a 1-stop pull of ECN-2. I was thinking I could try the same thing with ECP-2. I realize there would be some crossover, but it sounds relatively minor.

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    ECP confuses me... It's a color negative film that produces a transparency??
    ~Stone | "...of course, that's just my opinion. I could be wrong." ~Dennis Miller

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    Quote Originally Posted by StoneNYC View Post
    ECP confuses me... It's a color negative film that produces a transparency??
    Yes, exactly. It's the standard for making cinema prints.

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    Quote Originally Posted by ajseier View Post
    Yes, exactly. It's the standard for making cinema prints.
    But it's a negative, so you can't shoot with it right? You have to copy your neg ONTO it and then it's a positive?

    Either way it doesn't have an orange mask right? So you could X-process this in E-6 potentially? And not have the orange mask?
    ~Stone | "...of course, that's just my opinion. I could be wrong." ~Dennis Miller

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